Visit - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 30, 2006

Visit

Date: Apr 2, 2006

some one managed to get itech to not change the way the whole Southern Miss environment logs on to email. That was a big deal. Every one was being told to start using using the USM employment id number and the corresponding password that is used on the soar system. The problem was that many people had no idea what the soar password was and sacs visitors were going to show up at the same time.

Nice planning guys.

The change has now been moved to the 7th

Happier

Date: Apr 3, 2006

What days will SACS be on campus? What is the probability that the SACS team will actually meet and talk to a faculty member on campus who is not recommended by the administration? Is the probability greater than my winning the lottery after buying 10 tickets?

Date: Apr 3, 2006

two members of the visiting team arrived yesterday. the rest arrive today and will be visiting the coast. they will have their exit interview on thursday. should be gone by about noon on thursday.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

Cossack wrote:

What days will SACS be on campus? What is the probability that the SACS team will actually meet and talk to a faculty member on campus who is not recommended by the administration? Is the probability greater than my winning the lottery after buying 10 tickets?

Cossack,

The quote below from the March unapproved F.S. minutes may answer your question. It seems F.S. is talking to all they can.

4.1.10 Bill requested and has received permission for the senate’s exec. committee to meet with the SACS team for 45 minutes. He stated that he planned to address shared governance and sound planning issues at the meeting and welcomed any suggestions from the senate. He then deferred to Myron H. who attended a meeting (with Bonnie Harbaugh and others) with Margaret Sullivan, the SACS consultant. Myron stated that he found the session with Dr. Sullivan more of a “don’t do this while the team is here” meeting. Myron asked Dr. Sullivan if there would be an opportunity at these sessions for faculty to raise legitimate issues. This didn’t go over well and in addition a comment was made by another faculty that this was just coming from a few disgruntled faculty. Myron stated that he felt that that statement was inappropriate and incorrect. Myron pointed to the SACS statement on shared governance and stated that many faculty felt that this administration did not practice shared governance though it was stated prominently in our mission. Dr. Sullivan made no suggestions as to how faculty with legitimate concerns might express those concerns to members of the SACS on-site team, and she then continued with the discussion about proper protocol during the SACS on-site team's visit.

A senator stated that it is important that these issues are brought to the attention of SACS so that they could address the issues with the university and ultimately the IHL. But this senator was told specifically not to talk to SACS about these issues under any circumstances. Myron stated that that was not the purpose of the preparation meetings or the site team visit. The site team is supposed to help us with issues in order to help make us a better institution.

After further discussion, the senate made a motion expressing its confidence and full support in the exec. committee to represent the senate openly and honestly at its meeting with the SACS team. The motion passed unanimously.

4.1.11 Meeting with Dr. Meredith – Bill stated that he had received an email from Dr. Meredith and has scheduled a meeting between Dr. Meredith and the senate’s exec. committee for 9:30a on April 7th. Bill asked that senators send any comments or suggestions to him before the meeting date. Bill has also invited Dr. Meredith to address the senate but the at this time, Dr. Meredith was unable to attend any regularly scheduled senate meetings. Bill stated that a special meeting of the senate may be called if Dr. Meredith can attend at another time.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

Reporter,

Is it an over statement to say the fix is in?

Date: Apr 3, 2006

Cossack wrote:

Reporter, Is it an over statement to say the fix is in?

I guess we will have to wait and see. It appears Dr. Sullivan is trying to keep SACS isolated from the issues, but I don't think that will work.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

SACS onsite visitor: Tell us how you integrate your QEP in your instruction.

FACULTY: What's QEP?--Never heard of it until these posters went up across campus last week.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

Dialog coach,

Best line of the week. Humor in the face of disaster.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

SACS -- What is your QEP plan?

Getting rid of Shelby Thames!

Date: Apr 3, 2006

SACS doesn't get rid of presidents. only governing boards do. SACS did all it could to get thames a terminal contract. you expect too much of SACS.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

stinky cheese man,

My expectations of SACS are quite low. I think that SACS would accredit a ham sandwich if it followed instructions. While it may not be true, the feeling among faculty I have talked to is that the SACS visit is being orchestrated by SFT and the usual suspects plus the consultant(s). The probability of SACS finding any problems is directly related to how aggressive SACS is about talking to faculty and staff other than those chosen by SFT. The centerpiece according to Joan Exline is the QEP process. I keep up fairly well with what is going on in my college and the university. I cannot tell you anything about QEP. I doubt that 10% of the faculty know what QEP is about. Fortunately, the day after the SACS team leaves, QEP drop off the radar screen and we can go back to being Wurl Class.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

cossack--i wonder what your expectations of sacs are. i think, and know from conversations with many faculty, that people do not realize that sacs and its philosophy has changed from the '95 era--the last time we went through the process. many of the "must" statements have been eliminated. now the folks in atlanta didn't do that--the membership of sacs (the institutions that are accredited) wanted that.

there are areas of concern--the general education curriculum, faculty credentials, assessment. i think that folks want sacs to come in and raise cain with thames. they may well do that, but the terminal contract weakens that as a concern. the general education curriculum and faculty credential issues remain even if thames was not president. i wish folks could hear the consultant (and you don't need to hear her--she is just repeating the reality) talk about how the federal government drives many of these issues.

Date: Apr 3, 2006

stinky cheese man,

I think that my expectations are not that different from yours. Accrediting bodies focus on issues that they can measure and whatever is the theme of the decade in education. Overall, they are only marginally helpful to the educational process. SACS is a large bureaucracy and prone to the defects of all large bureaucracies. First and foremost their focus is on survival and the maintenance of their power. This includes expanding their scope and expanding the number of people they employ. They also operate in a political arena where some members are more equal than others. They are not concerned with questions such as; is USM a higher or lower quality institution than it was in the past, or is the organization run efficiently based on inputs and outputs? From observation, they place great emphasis on the flavor of the decade innovative approach to education. By changing the flavor of the decade, the organization can generate substantial revenue from providing services. It also generates consulting fees for a cadre of professionals such as our consultant(s). SFT incurred their wrath because he did not demonstrate the proper respect when he did not send in the paperwork. Once USM jumps through the hoops and demonstrates through paperwork that it is a team player, SACS will be satisfied. The one thing that USM will have demonstrated if accreditation is maintained is that you do not have to prepare very far ahead of time to get through the process. You can do in a year or less so there is no reason to start preparing for SACS two or three years in advance. SACS may not like that message sent, but I think that USM will make it through accreditation without a hitch.

However, you have much more experience with SACS and more insight than into how they operate. What do you think the outcome of the visit will be?

Date: Apr 4, 2006

cossack--i'm not a betting person, so i don't bet on the outcome. one observation--remember what SACS is--it is an organization of member institutions. these academic institutions make the rules. so if it is the flavor of the decade, it is the member institutions that make it the flavor of the decade. the folks in atlanta merely administer the standards established by the member academic institutions.

my friend in atlanta tells a funny story. he went to an institution that was seeking accreditation for the first time, and he was introduced as Mr. SACS.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

stinky cheese man wrote:

these academic institutions make the rules............. the folks in atlanta merely administer the standards established by the member academic institutions.

The institutions being evaluated makes the rules? The standards are established by the members being evaluated? Sounds to me like the fox watching the hen house.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

except that every regional accrediting agency also has to be accredited by, ultimately, the department of education.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

Stinky Cheese Man writes

it is an organization of member institutions. these academic institutions make the rules

It is true that universities collectively make up the SACS organization. However, the institutions do not make the rules while the SACS staff follows orders. Over time, more and more of the decision-making and the promulgation of new rules comes under staff control. The staff are the experts and university presidents on the SACS Board focus more on their institutions than SACS. It is only natural that staff will develop processes that increase the value of the staff. It is a natural outcome given the organization’s structure. The one aspect that university presidents on the Board will guard is their own power on a campus. As with all organizations, they will protect their own even if one of their own is doing a bad job.

My opinion is that SACS will not dig very deep into what is going on at USM, and will rebuff any attempts of faculty groups to have input that is not channeled through the administration. There may be some recommendations to change certain things, but USM will be reaccredited.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

My opinion is that SACS will not dig very deep into what is going on at USM, and will rebuff any attempts of faculty groups to have input that is not channeled through the administration . . .

Cossack and Co.:

On the contrary: At the USM facility in Gulfport today, the SACS team spent about 45 minutes in an unmediated discussion with some 35 or so resident faculty. Although Pat Joachim and Joan Exeline came in with the SACS team, Joachim and Exeline left before the discussion began. It was quite frank and free flowing. A couple of Coast chairs were present--Lansford (CoAL) and Ledford (CoST)--as was Kay Wall, but overall the contact between SACS and the Coast faculty was, as I said, unmediated.

The SACS folks had no questions at all about the danged QEP. None. On the other hand, they were very curious about the degree to which Coast faculty had genuine support from their H'burg departments and colleges. Answers ranged from "slim" to "some," but, more important I think, was that the SACS team was utterly mystified by the range of complicated arrangements that have sprung up between H'burg departments and Coast faculty. They asked questions about that repeatedly, and I got the impression that they never really understood what is going on along those lines. Cripes, I'm not sure that anyone really has a grasp of that. Certainly not Pat Jaochim or Jay Grimes.

It was also very clear that, although Thames was not named, many Coast faculty laid the blame for problems at the door of his plans to unify the Coast w/H'burg, despite all the progress that had been made towards "appropriate autonomy" under Fleming and Lucas. The kicker to the whole discussion came at the end when the SACS representative himself said that, given the conversation he just had with us, it was clear that the problems with "distance learning" which had led to our recent probation had not been fully solved. And he was very specific that by "distance learning" he meant the USM-Gulf Coast operation. This was not the impression that the estimable Dr. Exeline gave in her presentation to Faculty Senate in Spring 2005. Nor was it the impression fostered by Mader and Thames, who gave out that the SACS probation had resulted from the wrong paperwork about assesment of on-line, IVN, and hybrid courses. It's entirely possible, kids, that the reaffirmation is not a done deal. The reason? The mess Thames has made of the Coast. My money's on another 1 year probation.

Anyone else who was there needs to chime in if I didn't get something right. I didn't take notes or anything.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

Thank you for the information. Hopefully there was and will be some listening going on in Hattiesburg. We shall see. Since most of the activities undertaken specifically to impress SACS are an inch deep and a mile wide, it all may be more transparent to the visitors than we thought.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

It was also very clear that, although Thames was not named, many Coast faculty laid the blame for problems at the door of his plans to unify the Coast w/H'burg, despite all the progress that had been made towards "appropriate autonomy" under Fleming and Lucas. The kicker to the whole discussion came at the end when the SACS representative himself said that, given the conversation he just had with us, it was clear that the problems with "distance learning" which had led to our recent probation had not been fully solved. And he was very specific that by "distance learning" he meant the USM-Gulf Coast operation. This was not the impression that the estimable Dr. Exeline gave in her presentation to Faculty Senate in Spring 2005. Nor was it the impression fostered by Mader and Thames, who gave out that the SACS probation had resulted from the wrong paperwork about assesment of on-line, IVN, and hybrid courses. It's entirely possible, kids, that the reaffirmation is not a done deal. The reason? The mess Thames has made of the Coast. My money's on another 1 year probation.

much of the coast watcher's report i found interesting. but this paragraph i don't believe large parts of. which SACS representative are we talking about? the person from the atlanta office? if coast watcher was there they would know and could identify this person by name. in fact, by going to the SACS webpage you could name the person. by being off probation the concern of SACS was resolved, whether this unnamed SACS representative wants to believe it or not.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

sStinky cheese man wrote:

by being off probation the concern of SACS was resolved, whether this unnamed SACS representative wants to believe it or not.

I think there is more than a grain of truth to what Coast Watcher said.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

then provide some proof. who was the SACS representative coast watcher referred to?

Date: Apr 4, 2006

Good Heavens SCM, I do believe my integrity has been impugned! Dude, two of them didn't have name tags and they were introduced once, by Pat Joachim, who muffed the introductions and had to be corrected in her pronunciation of their names. But seriously, the only member of the team who self identified as being from SACS was a 55-65 white dude, slightly portly, quite bald, witty, sort of urbane: he used a French phrase, casually, w/out the accent, like it was just a normal speech act or something. The other two members of the team were white women, both above average height and slender. One of them was soft spoken, had a slight European accent and an unpronounceable first name--something like "Ilyusha--the other had a hyphenated last name, looked sort of remarkably WASP. She was the only one who had a name tag and was addressed, by the portly white guy, as "Madame Chairwoman." Could somebody else crack the danged SACS website? I've got to read a hundred pages before I go to bed tonight.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

coast watcher--i get you. you can remember all sorts of meeting details but you're bad at names. and which SACS representative made the comments about distance learning, or is that a blur too?

Date: Apr 4, 2006

SCM wrote --- SACS doesn't get rid of presidents. only governing boards do. SACS did all it could to get thames a terminal contract. you expect too much of SACS.

I dont expect anything from SACS. This statement wasnt for SACS to get rid of Thames, SACS is going around campus asking what the QEP plan is, the response we are to give is "Getting rid of Shelby Thames!"

Sorry, next time I will elaborate more.

Date: Apr 4, 2006

It appears that the coast faculty was more forthcoming than the Hattiesburg faculty are prepared to be. The Hattiesburg faculty seem to have the distinct impression that speaking up to SACS is a very bad idea, and they fear retaliation if they do.

Date: Apr 5, 2006

SCM:

Since you have had experience with SACS and keep up with changes in requirements, I am certain that those not familiar with academe may not understand what is looked at with regard to faculty credentials. Can you clarify for those of us who think we know but aren't certain? Thanks in advance for your insight.

Date: Apr 5, 2006

generally, terminal degree in the teaching discipline from an accredited university. when it comes to heads of academic programs, the department chair or program head has to have a terminal degree in that area. exceptions can be made, but they should be very few and have to be justified by submission of a portfolio.

Date: Apr 5, 2006

SCM:

Thanks for responding to my earlier question. What if a faculty member 's terminal degree is in English and the faculty also did a graduate minor in History. Would that faculty member be able to teach in History?