You are hard to defend - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 5, 2006

You are hard to defend

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Well as a graduate of USM who started at a different university (Louisiana Tech) I can tell you that classes being shortened or completely cancelled for one reason or another is not unique to USM.

As far as reviews they are sometimes essential in the educational setting. If for example you cover 3 chapters a week and school has been in session for 3 weeks thats 9 chapters. I am sure the students appreciate the instructors going back over the highlights. However each teacher sets their own class schedule. Some do reviews some dont.

Also sounds to me that your husband may have the best intentions BUT from personal expericence I can tell you that sometimes the school YOU think and the school YOUR CHILD thinks is best for them are two birds of a different feather. Its usually best in my opinion to let the person attending college pick out were they think is best for the, but I mean hey if you wanna pick out colleges for them, how about husbands, wives, social and political choices.

Part of going to college and becoming a adult is the freedom to make your own choices. It sounds to me like you are a very smart person who cares for your daughter, I am sure you dont want her calling you when she is 30 asking if she buy 2 or 3 ply toilet paper because all the decisions in her life have been made for her.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

I think the problem with this type of article is that it underscores the public perception that professors are stealing money from the taxpayers. It is true that the professor sets that pace of the class, but tempo and duration are two completely different things. Professors have an obligation to match the duration of their classes with the prescribed duration (in the case of these two faculty, 150 minutes twice per week). Running overtime causes scheduling problems, as students must get to their next class, but cutting classes short means that students get less than they pay for. Students may be okay with this, but the more experienced faculty members should push students to learn the maximum, and cutting classes short definitely falls short of the maximum.

Perhaps (and I would start with the assumption that) there is no malice or devious behavior involved in either case presented in the HA article. The problem is that if every teacher from grade K through the senior year of college cuts each class just 1% short (topic-wise), then the average student ends up learning only about 85% of what they should have learned had the classes been pushed to the limit.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

This department is Doty's little empire. A worse offender resides in the partner group.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

If I recall my days from USM, which were long ago, it was not unusual for a professor to assign a great deal of reading out of class time, then class time was spent reviewing what the student should have learned studying on their own. It helped to foster independent thinking instead of having the material spoon fed to the students. Of course, this isn't always the case, but it is an effective method for many students and professors.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Advocate wrote:

If I recall my days from USM, which were long ago, it was not unusual for a professor to assign a great deal of reading out of class time, then class time was spent reviewing what the student should have learned studying on their own. It helped to foster independent thinking instead of having the material spoon fed to the students. Of course, this isn't always the case, but it is an effective method for many students and professors.

What does any of that have to do with having 80 minutes of class time in a single day from two management classes cut? local USM mom addresses a concern many of us have with this type of thing. Another is the excessive use of Power Point presentations used by that department. When you were in school did your teachers read Power Point slides to you? Are you prepared to tell me that this is an effective method for many students? I hope not. I think the major has become a refuge for people who can't make it in accounting and want to play a game in their class. Ask these people if they are finding jobs. I don't think they are too pleased with their situations when they graduate.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

usm accounting major wrote:

... Ask these people if they are finding jobs. I don't think they are too pleased with their situations when they graduate.

What do you mean? There are "help Wanted" signs up at just about every burger place between here and New Orleans. They are not having problems finding jobs.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Isn't the second professor the one who passed out about $7,000 to his class last semester after they presented their group projects? Is that happening again? I need to go back to school.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

More Doty debacles. That department is growing by leaps and bounds unnecessarily. This will all be pulled back in due time by the AD.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

usm accounting major wrote:

Advocate wrote: ...Another is the excessive use of Power Point presentations used by that department. When you were in school did your teachers read Power Point slides to you? Are you prepared to tell me that this is an effective method for many students? I hope not...

Powerpoint is very effective if you use it correctly, especially if the professor makes those slides available to the students to download. This way, instead to spending the lecture copying notes of the slides (same as you would off the board if you didn't use powerpoint), the students can write down highlights of what the professor is saying.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

not so fast, psych major. there was a time when students were expected to study ahead of time and then make a real-time determination about what was said in lecture that was new, different, or contrary to the text OR that strongly reinforced what was stated in the text. i guess nowadays we just think our students' little brains are incapable of such tasks. notetaking is a lost art, and powerpoint is a major cause of its demise.

instead of increasing the rigor of the class, powerpoint reduces the amount of effort required by both the instructor and the student. most textbooks come with prepared powerpoint slides as part of the instructor materials. far too many instructors do little or no prep work when using these prepared slides. the result is that presentations are boring, canned, and a disgrace to our profession.

i would suggest that (anecdotally) nearly 100% of excellent students and a strong majority (65-75%) of above average students detest powerpoint. they especially dislike it when the professor puts almost all the key points on the slides and then hands them out, an activity that removes the reward for taking good notes in class. why take good notes when the professor is going to hand them out? why, then, should a student go to class if he or she can get photocopies of perfect notes vis a vis powerpoint from a friend or from webct?

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Notes are just as accessible from friends whether they are powerpoint slides or notes straight from the professor's mouth. It has been my experience that the majority of test questions are not in the slides, but from the textbook or class discussion.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

again, not so fast. in the old notetaking method, a student had to make a value judgment about the quality of the notes they would (or could) get if he or she missed a class. students had to factor this into their decision making process before deciding to cut classes.

it's an entirely different thing when the professor gives what amounts to a complete outline of course material to everyone. no value judgment needed, just study the outline. this is especially true of those professors who add virtually nothing original to the slides.

you still have not addressed the fact that handing out powerpoint slides mitigates the advantage for a student with good notetaking, listening, and comprehension skills.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Erratum wrote:

not so fast, psych major. there was a time when students were expected to study ahead of time and then make a real-time determination about what was said in lecture that was new, different, or contrary to the text OR that strongly reinforced what was stated in the text. i guess nowadays we just think our students' little brains are incapable of such tasks. notetaking is a lost art, and powerpoint is a major cause of its demise. instead of increasing the rigor of the class, powerpoint reduces the amount of effort required by both the instructor and the student. most textbooks come with prepared powerpoint slides as part of the instructor materials. far too many instructors do little or no prep work when using these prepared slides. the result is that presentations are boring, canned, and a disgrace to our profession. i would suggest that (anecdotally) nearly 100% of excellent students and a strong majority (65-75%) of above average students detest powerpoint. they especially dislike it when the professor puts almost all the key points on the slides and then hands them out, an activity that removes the reward for taking good notes in class. why take good notes when the professor is going to hand them out? why, then, should a student go to class if he or she can get photocopies of perfect notes vis a vis powerpoint from a friend or from webct?

Erratum,

I do not agree with your points and question your anecdotal data. I make my class materials available to my undergraduate and graduate students for several reasons. My PowerPoint notes are not word for word the lectures I present. I do so, so that my students will be able to access the material and so that they will be able to listen and participate in the class offering. Additionally, I can cover more material using the medium. I, and no professor who I have contact with uses canned PowerPoint material for any class that I am aware of in the Psychology Department. We are better than that I would strongly suggest. Your point that PowerPoint reduces the amount of work that professors do is without merit. It certainly does not in my case or the cases of my colleagues. I also firmly believe that he fact that I make my slides available to my undergraduate students in Educational Psychology does not impact my attendance. My class tends to have an attendance percentage of about 85-90% on average. My students would certainly take you to task regarding the rigor of my class as well. Making the notes available on through PowerPoint and e-reserve is a support to my students; most will tell you that all information is not contained in the slides and others will tell you that they make additional notes on the slides as well. Again, I'm not sure of the basis for your statements.

Joe

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Students in business are against Power Point. Enough said. Use of them is just one of the problems in the business college.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Joe,

so your anecdotal evidence is better than mine? should I just retract my statements because you were aggressive in your response? i think i'll run home scared of the big man who talks louder than i do. just kidding, joe -- i just think you misread my posts and fired off a post. i have been speaking about prepared (i.e., textbook company) powerpoint.

i specifically focused my comments on instructors who add nothing to the canned powerpoint presentations and the fact that students who take classes from such instructors have nothing to gain by trying to take good notes -- all the "stuff" is already there. if you (as just one data point among many who use powerpoint) add substantial material to the lectures that you do not print out for students, then you are not among those i was speaking of.

powerpoint is fine for some disciplines, and psychology may very well be one of them if it is used correctly. have you ever tried to teach calculus on powerpoint? what about other process-oriented courses? can an effective presentation in this type of area really be prepared ahead of time, or does the nature of the course demand that other, more rudimentary (and flexible) technologies be employed?

for example, the chalk board is a good alternative for the substance of every powerpoint presentation, but the powerpoint presentation is not a good alternative for the substance of every chalkboard presentation.

one last thing. i would suggest that you broaden your powerpoint anecdotal database. take a walk to other colleges. you might be surprised and disgusted.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

local USM mom wrote:

My daughter is a management major at USM (since 2003). She picked USM and that major against her father's wishes. He wanted her to attend another university and to pick another major. I ran interference for her then and I have continued to run interference for her. The reason for my post. There are two articles in today's newspaper that relate to our situation. The first is a short story about renovations in the business college that have the students attending two 8 week school terms. I knew about this beforehand from my daughter. She explained it to us at the end of the Christmas break. She told us that every class on Tuesday is like a whole week in a usual term and that every class on Monday is like most of a week in a usual term. The second article is more important to the reason for my post. It is the very nice article about Marc Maddox. I was upset to read that the two business management classes that Marc attended that day (Mon. January 30th) were cut very short, and all that was accomplished in either class was some sort of a review. The first class was supposed to last for 1 hour and 50 minutes but only lasted 1 hour and 20 minutes and all that was done was review for a test on the Wednesday after that. I suppose that the entire 1 hour and 50 minutes was used up for the test on that day. This means that more than one week of class was used to take the test. The second class was also supposed to last for 1 hour and fifty minutes, but lasted only one hour instead. That hour was also used to review an assignment that was due on the Wednesday after that. This all means that a worse thing happened in that second class. My husband will sit down tonight and read the paper an he will have something to say for sure. He has already said next year our son will not follow his sister's foot steps.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that an entire week was utilized to ensure that students knew the material presented on that test.

It is important to note the university classes are not intended to present all the knowledge units contained in the course. Much learning is expected to be accomplished outside of the classroom (reading, lab work, on-line discussions.) The length of the class is often not related to the rigor of the course or the amount of learning that goes on, especially for lengthy classes such as those noted here. Try it yourself, staying focused on difficult material for almost two hours.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

i know one person who says "the brain will absorb what the behind will endure."

Date: Feb 5, 2006

This whole thread is a bit difficult to draw black and white conclusions on. Look, Erratum you are right... Joe is certainly right as well. I agree that there are some faculty who "teach the book" - students really get nothing from these courses that they couldn't get from the book alone. These faculty, as far as I am aware of, are a very, very small part of this school.

BUT - The use of powerpoint cannot be equated as being the same as "teaching the book". I guarantee I don't. The book is a secondary (sometimes tertiary) component to my courses. I use Powerpoint extensively, to provide extensive data and experiences to bear on the topic. I bet if you ask Joe (or my) students, they would tell you that missing our PowerPoints can be deadly come exam time. If organized properly, and with an eye towards communicating effectively, PowerPoint is fine. My students are in class BECAUSE of what is on those slides.

As for "hard to defend" - well, I always like to give people one of the great positives about going to USM as a student. Unlike the great schools (however you define them), you will have terminally-degreed faculty (not graduate students), in reasonably small classes, providing real education to students. Like many in my college, I know my students very well. They enjoy my classes, and are always willing to sit down and visit about their lives and their education. Try that at a school like LSU or Georgia - You might not even see a professor till your last semester, with graduate students DEFINITELY teaching the book. Are you getting "your money's worth" at those schools?

A friend of mine graduated from a top 10 (IVY) school, and he loves to tell people that there is really no substantive difference between the kind of teaching that happens there and the kind of teaching that happens at USM. Students in group projects are worked very hard, and if class ends due to group get-togethers and after lecture discussion time, so be it. Again - that is part of what those students value the most, the chance to have real dialogue about their projects.

Getting wrapped up about when class starts and stops is not the point in my mind. It is the content. If that is what is most important to you, then I suggest you give USM a chance. I guarantee at State or Ole Miss, mostly doctoral students will be teaching your child right out of some assigned textbook. Is that better? Are you getting your money's worth there? I don't think so.

Count

Date: Feb 5, 2006

Been there - Amen. I've been there too.

Count

Date: Feb 5, 2006

I know someone who said, "If you don't sit still and pay attention, I'm going to whip your butt." Because this person was my grandfather and I knew it was no idle threat, I sat still and paid attention.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

I think I remember that university students used to do their own reviewing and that professors used to teach new material every class day, right up to the exams.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

I find it interesting that so many profs come to this board today to defend the practice of the two management professors who hold half-classes. They probably only teach two or three to begin with. It's a great gig if you can get. The idea that "there is some independent learning that must go on" or "what's wrong with reviewing if there is a lot of material?" just boggles the mind of those who work for a living.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

I find it interesting that so many profs come to this board today to defend the practice of the two management professors who hold half-classes. They probably only teach two or three to begin with. It's a great gig if you can get. The idea that "there is some independent learning that must go on" or "what's wrong with reviewing if there is a lot of material?" just boggles the mind of those who work for a living.

They want you to understand that President Thames is a bad man but don't want you to think that anything any one of them does is ever bad. They'll defend anything and everything.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

things that are comcastic wrote:

This department is Doty's little empire. A worse offender resides in the partner group.

Don't assume that everyone in this department loves HD. There is a growing enemies list there, and even he would be surprised about one of them.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

I find it interesting that so many profs come to this board today to defend the practice of the two management professors who hold half-classes. They probably only teach two or three to begin with. It's a great gig if you can get. The idea that "there is some independent learning that must go on" or "what's wrong with reviewing if there is a lot of material?" just boggles the mind of those who work for a living.

A. Since when is a two-hour class less 15 minutes a "half-class"?

B. Do not start with the "work for a living" cr@p again, please. I am a middle-aged person who has had many different types of jobs, including teaching, and I know how much work it is. We have been around that mulberry bush about a hundred times on this board. Teaching is among the hardest jobs I've ever had, and I've had some doozies.

Date: Feb 5, 2006

LVN wrote:

A. Since when is a two-hour class less 15 minutes a "half-class"? B. Do not start with the "work for a living" cr@p again, please. I am a middle-aged person who has had many different types of jobs, including teaching, and I know how much work it is. We have been around that mulberry bush about a hundred times on this board. Teaching is among the hardest jobs I've ever had, and I've had some doozies.

LVN, you too are guilty of shading. The article on Maddox says the class was cut 20 minutes short, not 15. If you look at Copelands column about his article, there he says the class ran for 75 minutes. That means, if you take that figure, that the class was cut 25 minutes short. Also, the second professor's class ran for half the time. Keep in mind also that nothing new was going on in either class. I'm with kiln eagle on this one. You are making my earlier point.

Date: Feb 6, 2006

Erratum and others who seem to find it easy to attack faculty,

There are times that I tire of statements made about me and how I do my job. Yes, I know these statements may not be directed at me in particular, but so often broad statements are made about how we as faculty do our jobs; about how we get paid for doing little work. This gets really tiresome!!! You know very little of what I do on a day to day basis; of how hard I work; of how many hours I put in; of my dedication to USM. Why would you think that you do? You make these broad based statements, yet do not put your name to them. I can only wonder why. I'm sure our paths have crossed in public, yet you will never make these statements to me in person. Again, I can only wonder why. I don't know what you do or where you work, but you can rest assured that I would never question your dedication to your job. I would never question whether you failed to give a day's work for a day's pay. What makes you feel you are in a position do that in my case? Stop making these general statements; if you have a bone to pick with me or some individual faculty member, do so in a forthright manner. The faculty at USM are very tired of these attacks, and, Erratum, if I seemed to respond in a sharp manner, I am sorry you took it as such. Do I apologize? No, not really. We are all very tired of the attacks. For the record, I do not let my classes out early; I do not play golf during the week (and not even on the weekend in the past 5 months); I have dedicated myself to their educational development, and I fully expect that my classes are the best place to be. In fact, I tell my students just that, and to a great extent, I think they believe that as well. In short, if you have something to say, be willing to own your words. That's not too much to ask. If you wish to respond to me personnally and off board, you can find my email address on the USM website. I look forward to putting a name with a handle; maybe even a face if you choose.

Date: Feb 6, 2006

joe--i agree with all you say. but, as a faculty member, i don't waste my time reacting to these posts or justifying what i do. the downside of a public forum like this is that you read things you don't like. i know other faculty members who take the same point of view. life is too short to get wound up about some comments on this message board.

Date: Feb 6, 2006

stinky cheese man wrote:

joe--i agree with all you say. but, as a faculty member, i don't waste my time reacting to these posts or justifying what i do. the downside of a public forum like this is that you read things you don't like. i know other faculty members who take the same point of view. life is too short to get wound up about some comments on this message board.

SCM,

You're right! A moment of weakness on my part. Thanks for the reality check.

Joe