Troubling Visit from Neighbor Last Night - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 12, 2006

Troubling Visit from Neighbor Last Night

Date: Jan 12, 2006

Can't believe the chair of the history department wouldn't want to talk with him about this--to see the paper, etc. We always kept close track of our teaching GA's in my department.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

A university should have an effective grade appeals process. My observation over fifteen years is that USM does not have one. I have also observed that USM does not have an effective faculty grievance process. My conclusions in this matter are based on a comparison with the appeals process that exists at other schools. Even what Stringer and Glamser were subjected to was more of a Kangaroo court than a proper hearing.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

Grade disputes arise in academe. If a student believes there is a problem with an aspect of TA instruction, that student should talk with those who have oversight. The next step in the chain of command after the instructor is whoever has direct oversight over TA instruction (possibly the chair, but possibly the departmental director of graduate studies), and then the chair if necessary, and--should it go so far-- then the dean, then the provost.

In the meantime, the members of this message board only have a third-hand report of one side of a story that does not concern them unless in some way it represents part of the pattern of administrative mismanagement at USM.

As far as there being an effective grade appeal procedure, Amy Young could speak to that issue better than I.

J Lares

Date: Jan 12, 2006

Scale of Justice wrote:

A university should have an effective grade appeals process. My observation over fifteen years is that USM does not have one. ...

But USM does have a grade appeals process, I know, I had to defend a grade once while I was there. As for how effective it is, I don't know, but I do know that I supplied the committee with a great deal of supporting documentation. From conversations with other faculty at my present school, the grade appeal process here (at least from the faculty side) is very similar to what I did at USM.

I agree with JL that you have to work up the academic chain (chair, dean's office, etc.), so tell you friend that his daughter needs to take the first step. If anything, think of this as a life lesson. This will not be the last time that she feels something unfair happens to her. This is a moment where she learns to either stand up for herself or role over.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

http://www.usm.edu/union/studenthandbook.pdf

USM Student Handbook, pp. 50-56

GRADE APPEAL PROCESS
A. A student who is dissatisfied with his/her final grade in a course must first attempt to negotiate a change in the grade with the instructor teaching the course. If the instructor is not a member of the university faculty at the time the student receives notice of the final grade, the student should attempt to negotiate a grade change with the chair of the department in which the course was taught.
B. Should the decision of the instructor in Step A be unacceptable to the student, the student should secure the university’s appeal form for grade review from the Office of the Provost and provide the information required. The student will sign and date a log. The purpose of the log is to enable the University Grade Review Council to monitor the accessibility and effectiveness of the grade challenge process. At the same time, the student will be assisted in scheduling an appointment with the chair (or, if unavailable, the chair-elect) of the council....

Date: Jan 12, 2006

Scale of Justice wrote:
A university should have an effective grade appeals process. My observation over fifteen years is that USM does not have one. I have also observed that USM does not have an effective faculty grievance process. My conclusions in this matter are based on a comparison with the appeals process that exists at other schools. Even what Stringer and Glamser were subjected to was more of a Kangaroo court than a proper hearing.

I agree with the last part of SofJ's statement, and I will address that at the end of this post. But I don't agree with initial assertion.

In the past, USM had an effective grade appeals process. While I never had a grade appealed, several colleagues have and others have been on the appeals board. I have never heard anyone say the process is unfair--either to faculty or students. It is important for faculty to keep careful records.

As to the faculty grievance policy/process, there is (was?) one in place. The G/S matter was a testimony to the vindictive and chaotic nature of the Thames regime. As others have posted, what should have been an academic issue (well, of course, it never should have been an issue) was turned into what you so correctly called a kangaroo court.

It may be true that this now is happening all over campus--with grade appeals, salary appeals, etc. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it, but I still worry about and commiserate with my former colleagues.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

"She claims that the instructor (a grad student) didn't discuss the subject matter. Her claim is that the instructor discussed current events, including the evils of Republicanism, capitalism, etc., all semester and left the history to outside reading. Her major grade in that course was a paper on which she received a grade of 'F' because it was religious themed: the influence of religion on that period of history or something like that. The grad student will give his daughter no 'satisfaction' with regard to her performance, saying only that her paper topic was inappropriate for the assignment."

I hate to say this, but this story does not surprise me. I do not teach at USM, but I do know that students where I do teach have had similar experiences of professors using the classroom as a personal bully-pulpit to sermonize about their own political and cultural beliefs. I do not mean challenging students to think in unaccustomed ways or to consider unfamiliar ideas; I mean political preaching of the most obvious sort. It always astonishes me that people with such firm and inflexible ideas have chosen to go into teaching, a profession in which an open mind and a willingness to doubt and freely discuss everything (including one's own beliefs) seems essential. However, maybe I should not be surprised, because I have noticed that many students who go on for graduate work go with firm agendas already in mind. Given the fact that so many professors now seem to regard their jobs as converting the misguided (rather than helping students to learn for themselves), and given the fact that the converters mostly seem to reside on one end of the political spectrum (at least in the humanities), it doesn't surprise me at all the professors are held in increasingly low public esteem. Many students are smart enough not to argue with obviously biased teachers, but that doesn't mean that they respect them. The story recounted above saddens me because it does not surprise me at all.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

manova wrote:

Scale of Justice wrote: A university should have an effective grade appeals process. My observation over fifteen years is that USM does not have one. ...

manova wrote: But USM does have a grade appeals process . . . . As for how effective it is, I don't know

manova, I have reproduced both of our comments side-by-side (see above). We've both made our respective judgment from our own experiences. You suggested that your experiences are inconclusive. My experiences, on the other hand, have lead me to believe otherwise. I think maybe the reason we differ on this is because USM's grade appeals process has been "uneven" over time. It has waxed, waned, and waffeled. I have seen strong-arm abuses in the system that would make Little Bo Peep look like Frankenstein.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

kick

Date: Jan 12, 2006

I just spoke with my neighbor about the situation and passed on the suggestions of those who I presume to be in the CoAL. Apparently the daughter has consulted with some classmates and has discovered that several are similarly positioned -- good grades in general but a poor grade in that course. She will be pursuing it through proper channels. I hope right wins out in the end (one way or the other) and that she gets (or has already gotten) a fair shake.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

I'm the chair of the History Department. I would definitely like this student to come talk to me. I'm in my office pretty much all the time I'm not teaching or at some meeting---LAB 455. I can also be reached by phone (601) 266-4333.

Date: Jan 12, 2006

If I were the student involved here, I would obtained a copy of the published grade appeals procedure and follow it to the letter. The policies of other schools with which I am familiar would indicate that the student begin by discussing the matter with the faculty member who issued the grade in question (unless there is some reason the student feels he or she can't or shouldn't discuss the matter with the professor). Are USM students made aware of the published policy up front or do they have to scramble for information? Is there a published policy?

Date: Jan 12, 2006

The grade appeals process is 1) published and available to the student, and 2) a carefully considered process, taken seriously by all who are concerned with the appeal at every level. If the student does not feel satisfied with the responses to his/her concerns at the instructor/chair/dean level, an appeal can be made at the university level. The charge to the grade appeals committee is to rule as to whether the grade was awarded in an "aribtrary and capricious manner."

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Wow, things at USM are in worse shape than even I thought - and I don't mean the student's supposed reasons for getting a poor grade. I am astonished that folks on this board take a third-hand account of a student's explanations for their poor grade without a critical eye. How is a student going to explain an F to their parent - that they didn't work hard enough or grasp the material? Not likely. More likely they make up some baloney that they know plays well in conspiracy-minded Republican land. Although the identity of this student must remain confidential, I hope that the original poster keeps us informed as to the real reason why this student failed a course.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

The student made an A in every other course. That doesn't sound like slacking off.
Dr. Jestice had the answer. Send the student to her.
And OP, explain to your neigbor the difference between a TA and regular faculty.

And Angeline, I've been on the receiving end of this same situation.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Angeline wrote:

...I am astonished that folks on this board take a third-hand account of a student's explanations for their poor grade without a critical eye....

It is not our place to criticize the student or the teacher...we are merely pointing out that there is a grade appeal process that some say works quite well. I think the best course is for the student to first talk to the chair. The chair or appeal board will decide if the student's claims have any merit.

I have seen this go both ways. I had a grade appealed once and it was upheld. I also had a student come in to ask me why they made the grade I gave them and it was determined that I made a mistake in the grade book. My only advice is that if the student really feels that she was wronged, that she should do something about it. I will let someone looking at the facts judge the merit.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

From a legal perspective, it would probably be best if the present discussion were left as-is. The advice to follow the appeal process is correct. Any further comment could be construed as intimidating or biasing the process.

As someone who has intimate experience with academic appeals AND legal ramifications of not following such procedures, I can tell you that faculty discussing the particulars of a case in an open forum probably isn't the best idea.

Of course, another thread discussing the appeals process, past experiences, ways to improve the system, and the like would allow discussion to continue without the specifics of this case being continually publicized.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Lest we forget wrote:

It always astonishes me that people with such firm and inflexible ideas have chosen to go into teaching, a profession in which an open mind and a willingness to doubt and freely discuss everything (including one's own beliefs) seems essential. However, maybe I should not be surprised, because I have noticed that many students who go on for graduate work go with firm agendas already in mind.

Lest We Forget,

An excellent post. And Angeline's reference to "some baloney that they know plays well in conspiracy-minded Republican land" appearing below is a textbook example.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Mr. Wizard wrote:

Lest we forget wrote: It always astonishes me that people with such firm and inflexible ideas have chosen to go into teaching, a profession in which an open mind and a willingness to doubt and freely discuss everything (including one's own beliefs) seems essential. However, maybe I should not be surprised, because I have noticed that many students who go on for graduate work go with firm agendas already in mind. Lest We Forget, An excellent post. And Angeline's reference to "some baloney that they know plays well in conspiracy-minded Republican land" appearing below is a textbook example.

OK - here's some "baloney" for ya: I bothered to look in the course catalog for last semester's history courses and see that ALL American history courses were taught by tenured or tenure-track faculty, not graduate students. I confirmed that fact with a friend in that department as well. So, again, before everyone jumps to conclusions that they are only too ready to accept as fact without even bothering to employ some rational criticism and research, may I suggest that either the student clearly is mistaken or his/her father was confused about the course their student was enrolled in? Therefore, it is more than likely that there is confusion about how/why the grade was earned as well? The only courses that had sections taught by some PhD students in history were World History (101/102) courses, neither one of which is divided at the year 1800 (it is 1500). At least, folks, be skeptical. The original poster on this thread has done no favors to the faculty at USM by spreading such incomplete rumors, so I urge them to dig to the bottom of the story. My friend iin History states that Dr. Jestice is awaiting a call or email or visit, none of which have happened yet.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Angeline wrote:

Mr. Wizard wrote:
. . . . And Angeline's reference to "some baloney that they know plays well in conspiracy-minded Republican land" appearing below is a textbook example.

OK - here's some "baloney" for ya: I bothered to look in the course catalog for last semester's history courses and see that ALL American history courses were taught by tenured or tenure-track faculty, not graduate students. I confirmed that fact with a friend in that department as well. So, again, before everyone jumps to conclusions that they are only too ready to accept as fact without even bothering to employ some rational criticism and research, may I suggest that either the student clearly is mistaken or his/her father was confused about the course their student was enrolled in? Therefore, it is more than likely that there is confusion about how/why the grade was earned as well? The only courses that had sections taught by some PhD students in history were World History (101/102) courses, neither one of which is divided at the year 1800 (it is 1500). At least, folks, be skeptical. The original poster on this thread has done no favors to the faculty at USM by spreading such incomplete rumors, so I urge them to dig to the bottom of the story. My friend iin History states that Dr. Jestice is awaiting a call or email or visit, none of which have happened yet.

Angeline,

On several occasions I have encouraged people who post here to be more skeptical about some of the claims people make on this board. Your point here is well taken. However, it was your reference to "conspiracy-minded Republican land" which prompted me to quote you.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Lest we forget wrote:

I hate to say this, but this story does not surprise me. I do not teach at USM, but I do know that students where I do teach have had similar experiences of professors using the classroom as a personal bully-pulpit to sermonize about their own political and cultural beliefs. I do not mean challenging students to think in unaccustomed ways or to consider unfamiliar ideas; I mean political preaching of the most obvious sort. It always astonishes me that people with such firm and inflexible ideas have chosen to go into teaching, a profession in which an open mind and a willingness to doubt and freely discuss everything (including one's own beliefs) seems essential. However, maybe I should not be surprised, because I have noticed that many students who go on for graduate work go with firm agendas already in mind. Given the fact that so many professors now seem to regard their jobs as converting the misguided (rather than helping students to learn for themselves), and given the fact that the converters mostly seem to reside on one end of the political spectrum (at least in the humanities), it doesn't surprise me at all the professors are held in increasingly low public esteem. Many students are smart enough not to argue with obviously biased teachers, but that doesn't mean that they respect them. The story recounted above saddens me because it does not surprise me at all.

Translation: I don't know sh*t about this situation. I know nothing about USM, its history department, or even the state of Mississippi (that darned bastion of left-wing liberalism), but I'll still use this story as an excuse to mouth out the last thing I read on freerepublic.com or heard David Horowitz say on Fox News because I can only act as a ventriloquist's dummy and can't think for myself.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Wow, Angeline accusing someone else of posting based on rumors nearly made me fall out of my seat with laughter! That is the pot calling the kettle black if I have ever seen it!

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Angeline wrote:

OK - here's some "baloney" for ya: I bothered to look in the course catalog for last semester's history courses and see that ALL American history courses were taught by tenured or tenure-track faculty, not graduate students. I confirmed that fact with a friend in that department as well. So, again, before everyone jumps to conclusions that they are only too ready to accept as fact without even bothering to employ some rational criticism and research, may I suggest that either the student clearly is mistaken or his/her father was confused about the course their student was enrolled in? Therefore, it is more than likely that there is confusion about how/why the grade was earned as well? The only courses that had sections taught by some PhD students in history were World History (101/102) courses, neither one of which is divided at the year 1800 (it is 1500). At least, folks, be skeptical. The original poster on this thread has done no favors to the faculty at USM by spreading such incomplete rumors, so I urge them to dig to the bottom of the story. My friend iin History states that Dr. Jestice is awaiting a call or email or visit, none of which have happened yet.

If what Angeline says here is true, why didn't Phyllis Jestice say that the story is baloney? PJ came to this thread and simply stated to have the student come to see her. I passed along the appropriate information. Again, while Angeline might be correct, I find it interesting that PJ didn't just come out and give us that info up front. Could it be that there actually were grad students teaching?

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Maybe the reason why Dr. Jestice did not expand upon the issue at hand, other than stating that she is more than willing to help resolve this matter, is because it is no one's business but the said student, parents, CoAL faculty member(s) and/or T.A. involved.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Ma Kettle wrote:

Wow, Angeline accusing someone else of posting based on rumors nearly made me fall out of my seat with laughter! That is the pot calling the kettle black if I have ever seen it!

Rumors that I have posted about in the past never, ever accused a fellow faculty member (or graduate student) of wrongdoing. Our news about Administrative decisions, however, is often incomplete and purposely misleading, which is why I have in the past posted what I heard about a dean's or other Administrator's decisions in order to elicit something nearer the truth. Often, it turned out that the truth was even worse than I had heard. What the originator of this thread did, inadvertently or not, was put an entire department, its faculty, graduate students, and chair on notice that they better act and think and teach a certain way or else.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Translation: I don't know sh*t about this situation. I know nothing about USM, its history department, or even the state of Mississippi (that darned bastion of left-wing liberalism), but I'll still use this story as an excuse to mouth out the last thing I read on freerepublic.com or heard David Horowitz say on Fox News because I can only act as a ventriloquist's dummy and can't think for myself.

Sorry, but I don't read freerepublic.com, don't have much interest in David Horowitz, and am perfectly capable of speaking and thinking for myself. I was speaking from long personal observation and experience. Your response, however, simply illustrates the common assumption on the left that anyone who challenges you must be incapable of rational thought and doesn't deserve a thoughtful response. That, of course, is intellectual bigotry and intolerance of the rankest kind, and it ironically illustrates the very tendency I was talking about. I hope you aren't a teacher; I'd hate to be a student in your class and dare to have an independent thought.

Date: Jan 13, 2006

Angeline -- First off you have no way of knowing yet whether this rumor is true or not. You flame their rumor, but do not want the same treatment. I do not think that the poster put a department, its faculty and chair on notice to "teach a certain way or else." If the allegations are true, well they are VERY serious. If the class is not being taught, and it is only a bully pulpit -- well that is about a bad a mistake as a faculty member can make. Talk about reason to drop in the eyes of our peers. Just because the accusation (rumor) is about a faculty member and his/her teaching of class does not make it any worse than rumors of any other type. As a faculty member I would be more than irate to learn of a colleague who did not "teach" in class and only yammered on about current events.

Date: Jan 14, 2006

Ma Kettle wrote:

Angeline -- First off you have no way of knowing yet whether this rumor is true or not. You flame their rumor, but do not want the same treatment. I do not think that the poster put a department, its faculty and chair on notice to "teach a certain way or else." If the allegations are true, well they are VERY serious. If the class is not being taught, and it is only a bully pulpit -- well that is about a bad a mistake as a faculty member can make. Talk about reason to drop in the eyes of our peers. Just because the accusation (rumor) is about a faculty member and his/her teaching of class does not make it any worse than rumors of any other type. As a faculty member I would be more than irate to learn of a colleague who did not "teach" in class and only yammered on about current events.

I have already demonstrated the falsehoods that were obvious in part of the "rumor" - no graduate students taught American history courses last semester - which leads any mature person to think that where there is one falsehood there may be others. I await the final outcome and feel confident that the real story is not as portrayed by the original poster, at least not anywhere near the degree of "liberal" anti-Christian bias insinuated by the poster.

Date: Jan 14, 2006

Angeline wrote:

I have already demonstrated the falsehoods that were obvious in part of the "rumor" - no graduate students taught American history courses last semester - which leads any mature person to think that where there is one falsehood there may be others.

Angeline, I understand your concern. I agree that the American History claim sounds improbable under the circumstances. On the other hand, it's also a third-hand report, and things can change in the telling, including one subject morphing into another.

I think this topic might be tapped out. Dr. Jestice has indicated she is aware of the claimed problem, and has the resources to investigate it. There is, after all, no one like an historian to know how to handle an account of events.

Jameela