And while we debate online programs... - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 15, 2005

And while we debate online programs...

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Invictus wrote:

I just heard a segment on NPR's "Day to Day" about the new recommendation by the Michigan State Board of Education that high school students be required to take at least one online class as a graduation requirement.

Word of USM's online proposals must have reached Michigan. Michigan must be anticipating a goodly number of their high school crop enrolling at Southern Miss and they feel they should prepare those students for the "Hattiesburg experience."

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Actually, the gist of it -- at least what I could gather while dodging debris trucks & FEMA trailers on my way back to the office -- was that the Michigan Board thought that would be better proof of computer literacy than a lot of other options. Their concern is that "computer literate" high school students basically know how to play games, send instant messages & web surf, but that they don't know how to use the Internet for learning.

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Invictus wrote:

Actually, the gist of it -- at least what I could gather while dodging debris trucks & FEMA trailers on my way back to the office -- was that the Michigan Board thought that would be better proof of computer literacy than a lot of other options. Their concern is that "computer literate" high school students basically know how to play games, send instant messages & web surf, but that they don't know how to use the Internet for learning.

One required online course might not be a bad idea. It would give the student to put into practice what they learned (or were supposed to learn) on their formal computer-related courses. One online course might not be so bad for college students either - but not an entire degree program online.

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Send them South wrote:

Invictus wrote: Actually, the gist of it -- at least what I could gather while dodging debris trucks & FEMA trailers on my way back to the office -- was that the Michigan Board thought that would be better proof of computer literacy than a lot of other options. Their concern is that "computer literate" high school students basically know how to play games, send instant messages & web surf, but that they don't know how to use the Internet for learning. One required online course might not be a bad idea. It would give the student to put into practice what they learned (or were supposed to learn) on their formal computer-related courses. One online course might not be so bad for college students either - but not an entire degree program online.

If done right, it could be like a practicum colleges offer when students receive academic credit for going into supervised off-campus settings.

Date: Dec 15, 2005

In 2001 Fairleigh Dickinson implemented a requirement that undergraduates take a minimum of one online course per year. FDU's rationale and a glimpse of the resources it takes to make it work:

http://view.fdu.edu/default.aspx?id=2229

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Take it from someone who has taken several online or video classes, they are much harder than you think -- and more expensive. Many universities charge extra for online classes plus there is the additional cost of videos which can run upwards of $85 per semester per class and you still have to purchase books. In order to be successful at online classes, it is imperative that the student stay organized keep up with classes as if they are going to the university in person. It is all too easy to let it slide until mid-terms and then you are up all night for three nights in a row watching all of the class videos before an exam.

On the other hand, how wonderful is it to have a taped copy of a professors' class? Couldn't write fast enough and missed what he/she was saying, just replay the tape. It's also possible to review the tapes for exams or another class. This is a real benefit.

The most difficult part of online or distance ed. classes is the lack of interaction with the professor and the other students. Students talking among peers, discussing ideas and concepts, and analyzing written works is part of the college experience. The best online classes have professor or t.a. interaction with the students through online websites and chat rooms.

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Been there, Done that wrote:

Take it from someone who has taken several online or video classes, they are much harder than you think -- and more expensive. Many universities charge extra for online classes plus there is the additional cost of videos which can run upwards of $85 per semester per class and you still have to purchase books. In order to be successful at online classes, it is imperative that the student stay organized keep up with classes as if they are going to the university in person. It is all too easy to let it slide until mid-terms and then you are up all night for three nights in a row watching all of the class videos before an exam.
On the other hand, how wonderful is it to have a taped copy of a professors' class? Couldn't write fast enough and missed what he/she was saying, just replay the tape. It's also possible to review the tapes for exams or another class. This is a real benefit.
The most difficult part of online or distance ed. classes is the lack of interaction with the professor and the other students. Students talking among peers, discussing ideas and concepts, and analyzing written works is part of the college experience. The best online classes have professor or t.a. interaction with the students through online websites and chat rooms.

And when the college gets tired of paying you, they claim your taped lectures as its intellectual property (developed while under contract), fire you, and continue to show your lectures while an overworked instructor grades exams for the class. Sounds like a great deal all the way around! Except that you have no job and someone stole your lectures.

Date: Dec 15, 2005

CoD wrote:

And when the college gets tired of paying you, they claim your taped lectures as its intellectual property (developed while under contract), fire you, and continue to show your lectures while an overworked instructor grades exams for the class. Sounds like a great deal all the way around! Except that you have no job and someone stole your lectures.

Wouldn't they still have to pay you royalties as a "performing artist?"

Methinks you place a higher value on your lectures than they are likely worth on the open market

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Invictus wrote:

Wouldn't they still have to pay you royalties as a "performing artist?" Methinks you place a higher value on your lectures than they are likely worth on the open market

To the Thames administration, my lectures are worth my salary since my research is worthless to SFT and I do not do grant work. Of course I do not place a high value on my lectures since they are given at a high school level so that some of my students can understand the words I use. Regardless, I kind of like to be employed....

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Invictus wrote:

CoD wrote: And when the college gets tired of paying you, they claim your taped lectures as its intellectual property (developed while under contract), fire you, and continue to show your lectures while an overworked instructor grades exams for the class. Sounds like a great deal all the way around! Except that you have no job and someone stole your lectures. Wouldn't they still have to pay you royalties as a "performing artist?" Methinks you place a higher value on your lectures than they are likely worth on the open market

OK -- my peforming artist union is about to come hunt you down, bind you to a statue of Junius Brutus Booth and throw rotten 'maters at you!!

Seriously, while there are many legitimate concerns about online courses, there are also some very good reasons for having them as one component of a complex educational delivery system. I would rather discuss the kinds of experiences that are unique, important, and irreplacable about an education that is principally campus based ("embodied") that is distinctive and important both to the students and to the society into which they eventually go. If we'd spend more time talking about those issues (because ultimately we are talking about the kind of people, intellectuals, and citizens we want to nuture) instead of whether on-line courses per se are all evil, we might not only be able to better identify what it is that the embodied university offers, but actually find a place within that (real) space for legitimate (cyber) educational interactions.

Sorry for that last long and overly complicated sentence.

Date: Dec 15, 2005

stephen judd wrote:

I would rather discuss the kinds of experiences that are unique, important, and irreplacable about an education that is principally campus based ("embodied") that is distinctive and important both to the students and to the society into which they eventually go. If we'd spend more time talking about those issues (because ultimately we are talking about the kind of people, intellectuals, and citizens we want to nuture) instead of whether on-line courses per se are all evil, we might not only be able to better identify what it is that the embodied university offers, but actually find a place within that (real) space for legitimate (cyber) educational interactions.

Rotten 'maters & Wilkes' daddy notwithstanding, Stephen (as usual) has cut to the chase. If we undertand what is unique & important about "traditional" education delivery systems, we will not only justify tradition but identify things that should improve "nontraditional" delivery systems. By the same token, we can identify aspects of education that can be better or more efficiently handled online.

I've been out of the traditional classroom for over a decade. This semester was my sixth to teach online classes. Based on that experience, I'll reiterate what "Been there, done that" said: the lack of real-time interaction between students & instructors is the biggest issue for me. While there are students who "interact" constantly with me via email, phone & instant messaging, there are many who don't. And interaction between students & other students is extremely difficult to coordinate (force?). As in realspace, the better students find a way, but message boards & chatrooms aren't quite the same as what happens in the traditional classroom.

If an instructor is serious about teaching (in realspace or cyberspace), that person works his/her butt off. The online medium requires a level of out-of-the-boxedness that some folks (both teachers & students) have a lot of difficulty with. How many instructors in traditional settings do not allow students to take exams until they have scored at a specified level on practice sets or chapter reviews? I do that routinely with my online classes, but for the life of me, I don't see how I could have made that work within the constraints of a traditional classroom.

One area that I have not seen discussed much here is "hybrid" classes -- traditional classroom sections that are augmented with online components. Surely a fair number of USM professors use some variant of that theme & don't think of it as "online instruction" at all...

Date: Dec 15, 2005

Invictus wrote:

One area that I have not seen discussed much here is "hybrid" classes -- traditional classroom sections that are augmented with online components. Surely a fair number of USM professors use some variant of that theme & don't think of it as "online instruction" at all...

I'll chime in on this. I'm a big fan of online supplements to the traditional classroom. Students are used to interacting online in a variety of ways and I've been taking advantage of that fact to make the in-class experience more valuable.

I've been using WebCT for supplemental reading and posting lecture outlines in advance of the class. I've encouraged my students to download the outlines and to take notes right on the printed powerpoint slides. This spring I want to use an email list to discuss the reading. My hope is that "pre-discussion" via email will yield a more dynamic discussion in class.

Has anyone had success with this?