Doty Dictionary, 'no' means 'yes' - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Doty Dictionary, 'no' means 'yes'

Date: Dec 13, 2005

These go to graduate council, not academic council.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

I'm not sure what MFUW Press is talking about. Academic Council would not consider 600-level courses, since those are graduate courses. The deadline for providing course proposals to Graduate Council is January 12. If anything is forthcoming from the COB by that date, the various members of Graduate Council will consider it/them along with the other proposals, and the matter will appear on the agenda for the next meeting on January 23.

Past minutes will show that I've been a bit vocal about proper procedure being followed.

In the meantime, we've got some well deserved time off. We've had a harrowing semester, and I hope everyone who was affected by Katrina is feeling safer and happier at this moment.

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Jameela

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Sorry, meant to type "Graduate Council" instead of "Academic Council"

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Jameela Lares wrote:

I'm not sure what MFUW Press is talking about. Academic Council would not consider 600-level courses, since those are graduate courses. The deadline for providing course proposals to Graduate Council is January 12. If anything is forthcoming from the COB by that date, the various members of Graduate Council will consider it/them along with the other proposals, and the matter will appear on the agenda for the next meeting on January 23. Past minutes will show that I've been a bit vocal about proper procedure being followed. In the meantime, we've got some well deserved time off. We've had a harrowing semester, and I hope everyone who was affected by Katrina is feeling safer and happier at this moment. Merry Christmas, everyone. Jameela

Jameela, it has been reported that the 600-level courses from the CoB were sent to the Graduate Council, which met yesterday. Can you tell us what happened with that? There were 500-level courses too. The CoB faculty approved only the 500-level ones.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

If it was reported that 600-level courses were sent over for yesterday's meeting, then those reports are wrong. We did have a request to consider a few additional 500-level courses, but we voted to wait until next time.

Jameela

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Maybe Stephen Bushardt should respond to this thread.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

overjoy wrote:

Maybe Stephen Bushardt should respond to this thread.

Do not hold your breath.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Jameela Lares wrote:

If it was reported that 600-level courses were sent over for yesterday's meeting, then those reports are wrong. We did have a request to consider a few additional 500-level courses, but we voted to wait until next time. Jameela

In all due respects Jameela, the process was as follows:

MBA 500, MBA 511, MBA 520, MBA 550 as well as MBA 610 and MKT 635 were originally sent to the graduate council to be considered at the Monday meeting These were sent by the Dean’s or the graduate director’s office prior to the faculty meeting in COB on Friday. The graduate committee in COB decide to withdraw MBA 610 and MKT 635 and approve all six of the MBA 500 level courses. The six five hundred level courses were approved by the COB faculty on Friday and the forms for MBA 570 and MBA 530 were then sent to the Graduate council.

At the meeting of the graduate council MBA 610 and MKT 635 were removed from the graduate council agenda on a voice vote after a motion by Francis Daniel. This was appropriate as they had not been approved by the graduate committee or the faculty in COB. An attempt to have MBA 530 and MBA 570 added to the list for approval was turned down on a ballot vote as they did not meet the deadline for submission. They will be on the agenda for the January meeting of the graduate council. The council approved MBA 500, MBA 511, MBA 520, and MBA 550 by a ballot vote.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Stephen, if that is really you, I am impressed. Congratulations.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Old Sport wrote:

Stephen, if that is really you.

If you have additional questions regarding the process or the outcomes, please drop by my office or just give me a call.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Stephen,

Are you saying that the proposals were sent to graduate council before the CoB vote?

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Doty sent the courses over without a facultywide vote. Unreal!

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Oversight.com wrote:

Stephen, Are you saying that the proposals were sent to graduate council before the CoB vote?

I believe they were sent to the graduate committee before the vote on Friday. You can check this with Susan Siltanen of the graduate office for verification. This is not a big issue and should not consume a lot of our time. The Graduate Council would not approve the courses nor would they consider them without a faculty vote and the graduate committee vote. Without these two groups approval the motion would have been tabled by the council. The graduate council is very serous about faculty governances.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Nice to see that things are still dirty.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Stephen wrote:

I believe they were sent to the graduate committee before the vote on Friday. You can check this with Susan Siltanen of the graduate office for verification. This is not a big issue and should not consume a lot of our time. The Graduate Council would not approve the courses nor would they consider them without a faculty vote and the graduate committee vote. Without these two groups approval the motion would have been tabled by the council. The graduate council is very serous about faculty governances.

Do you not see something wrong with this? At best, it is presumptive. At worst, it is administrative malfeasance.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Oversight.com wrote:

Stephen wrote: I believe they were sent to the graduate committee before the vote on Friday. You can check this with Susan Siltanen of the graduate office for verification. This is not a big issue and should not consume a lot of our time. The Graduate Council would not approve the courses nor would they consider them without a faculty vote and the graduate committee vote. Without these two groups approval the motion would have been tabled by the council. The graduate council is very serous about faculty governances. Do you not see something wrong with this? At best, it is presumptive. At worst, it is administrative malfeasance.

I disagree here. There are a lot of hoops to jump through to get courses approved and most chairs and deans are eager to find ways to make a tedious process expeditious -- there are many occasions when faculty are euqally eager to get courses aproved as fast as possible.

It is perfectly fair to send things over for perusal by council members ahead of time . . . on the hope that approval will be forthcoming at the departmental level. Sending courses over does not necessarily signal that an end-run is being made. If the courses are disapproved at the departmental/college level they can always be withdrawn. That has certainly happened in both grad and academic councils in the past.

We have had some problems with courses that have been sent up for approval to levels above the grad council (IHL for instance) before the courses have been approved by grad council. That for sure, has to stop and I think both councils took strong issue with the practice through very strongly worded letters from the council chairs.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

Oversight.com wrote:

Stephen wrote: I believe they were sent to the graduate committee before the vote on Friday. You can check this with Susan Siltanen of the graduate office for verification. This is not a big issue and should not consume a lot of our time. The Graduate Council would not approve the courses nor would they consider them without a faculty vote and the graduate committee vote. Without these two groups approval the motion would have been tabled by the council. The graduate council is very serous about faculty governances. Do you not see something wrong with this? At best, it is presumptive. At worst, it is administrative malfeasance.

No, not really, it was more expedient then anything else but could be presumptive but hardly administrative malfeasance. You may see it differently and maybe others on the graduate council would agree with you. I would welcome their perspective on the issue.

Date: Dec 13, 2005

stephen judd wrote:

We have had some problems with courses that have been sent up for approval to levels above the grad council (IHL for instance) before the courses have been approved by grad council. That for sure, has to stop and I think both councils took strong issue with the practice through very strongly worded letters from the council chairs.

SJ, it's not OK for deans to pass stuff beyond GC? Perhaps they're doing it "on the hope that approval will be forthcoming at the [GC] level."

Date: Dec 14, 2005

Stephen wrote:

Jameela Lares wrote: If it was reported that 600-level courses were sent over for yesterday's meeting, then those reports are wrong. We did have a request to consider a few additional 500-level courses, but we voted to wait until next time. Jameela In all due respects Jameela, the process was as follows: MBA 500, MBA 511, MBA 520, MBA 550 as well as MBA 610 and MKT 635 were originally sent to the graduate council to be considered at the Monday meeting These were sent by the Dean’s or the graduate director’s office prior to the faculty meeting in COB on Friday. The graduate committee in COB decide to withdraw MBA 610 and MKT 635 and approve all six of the MBA 500 level courses. The six five hundred level courses were approved by the COB faculty on Friday and the forms for MBA 570 and MBA 530 were then sent to the Graduate council. At the meeting of the graduate council MBA 610 and MKT 635 were removed from the graduate council agenda on a voice vote after a motion by Francis Daniel. This was appropriate as they had not been approved by the graduate committee or the faculty in COB. An attempt to have MBA 530 and MBA 570 added to the list for approval was turned down on a ballot vote as they did not meet the deadline for submission. They will be on the agenda for the January meeting of the graduate council. The council approved MBA 500, MBA 511, MBA 520, and MBA 550 by a ballot vote.

Stephen, thanks for weighing in on this. I had thought the poster was implying that 600-level courses were among those we had not seen before the meeting and were being asked to consider at that time. We did indeed cross two 600-level courses off the agenda.

Jameela

Date: Dec 14, 2005

stephen judd wrote:

I disagree here. There are a lot of hoops to jump through to get courses approved and most chairs and deans are eager to find ways to make a tedious process expeditious -- there are many occasions when faculty are euqally eager to get courses aproved as fast as possible. It is perfectly fair to send things over for perusal by council members ahead of time . . . on the hope that approval will be forthcoming at the departmental level. Sending courses over does not necessarily signal that an end-run is being made. If the courses are disapproved at the departmental/college level they can always be withdrawn. That has certainly happened in both grad and academic councils in the past. We have had some problems with courses that have been sent up for approval to levels above the grad council (IHL for instance) before the courses have been approved by grad council. That for sure, has to stop and I think both councils took strong issue with the practice through very strongly worded letters from the council chairs.

Professor Judd,

What if one of these classes was already on the books, with students signed up and everything, and the equipment for online delivery had already been ordered, all before the college or Grad Council vote? Are you okay with that?