Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 
USM Forum -- Message Board -> AAUP-USM MESSAGE BOARD -> Football & Education
Post Info TOPIC: Football & Education
Reporter

Date:
Football & Education
Permalink Closed

Could we fill a football stadium to cheer about education?


By David Hampton
dhampton@clarionledger.com

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051120/COL0408/511200305/1167/OPINION



__________________
CLR WORK

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed

While Hampton brings up very good points, he offers precious little direction or positive ideas (as usual).

The issue I have with this line of reasoning is that some higher-level educators (SFT comes to mind) will use this as a call for "retention." The dropout rate is too high at lower levels, so we must do our part to pull the state's "average" up (or down...however you want to look at it).

The issue is that retention at colleges and universities in the face of high dropout rates at the high school level only serves to widen the socioeconomic gap that plagues Mississippi. We are moving to a state of homeostasis in which a large group will have college degrees (real or not) and a large group will be high school dropouts. There will be nobody in between.

My suggestion is one that has been proposed many times on this board in the past: close some colleges and universities in the state. While looking at a road atlas of Mississippi yesterday, I discovered that every MAJOR East/West interstate or highway has at least one university located on it. Further, most major North/South thoroughfares have TWO universities located on them. While politically incorrect, it is time to scale "the W," "the Valley," Alcorn, Delta State, and the junior college system back. While this will hurt higher education, it needs to be done. There are too many slots in higher ed for unworthy students at present. Freshman students at USM, Ole Miss, and State graduated high school without the basic education that should accompany a basic diploma, and some of these students are our "best and brightest." Take the cost savings from the scaleback and devote it to secondary education. Hire more teachers and pay the ones you already have a higher salary.

It will do no good to continually play the "building higher ed" game on top of a shoddy foundation. Mississippi has continually played this game and it will be the death of the state in the end.

__________________
Shop Work

Date:
Permalink Closed

CLR WORK wrote:

While Hampton brings up very good points, he offers precious little direction or positive ideas (as usual). The issue I have with this line of reasoning is that some higher-level educators (SFT comes to mind) will use this as a call for "retention." The dropout rate is too high at lower levels, so we must do our part to pull the state's "average" up (or down...however you want to look at it). The issue is that retention at colleges and universities in the face of high dropout rates at the high school level only serves to widen the socioeconomic gap that plagues Mississippi. We are moving to a state of homeostasis in which a large group will have college degrees (real or not) and a large group will be high school dropouts. There will be nobody in between. My suggestion is one that has been proposed many times on this board in the past: close some colleges and universities in the state. While looking at a road atlas of Mississippi yesterday, I discovered that every MAJOR East/West interstate or highway has at least one university located on it. Further, most major North/South thoroughfares have TWO universities located on them. While politically incorrect, it is time to scale "the W," "the Valley," Alcorn, Delta State, and the junior college system back. While this will hurt higher education, it needs to be done. There are too many slots in higher ed for unworthy students at present. Freshman students at USM, Ole Miss, and State graduated high school without the basic education that should accompany a basic diploma, and some of these students are our "best and brightest." Take the cost savings from the scaleback and devote it to secondary education. Hire more teachers and pay the ones you already have a higher salary. It will do no good to continually play the "building higher ed" game on top of a shoddy foundation. Mississippi has continually played this game and it will be the death of the state in the end.
May I add build more vocational education facilities.  Much of higher ed in this state is just vocational ed anyway.

__________________
Wilbur

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed

Academic success correlates inversely with the percentage of minorities. We have a high percentage and this is why our success is so low. Athletic success correlates directly with the percentage of minorities and this is why we've had a modest amount of success in athletic endeavors. I realize these facts are politically incorrect , but they are nevertheless true.

__________________
Third Witch

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed

When you say "minorities" I take it you mean "black" or "African-American" -- one problem is that the superior minority students get scooped up by better schools looking to improve their demographics. If my child was a black Merit Scholar, do you think I'd send her to USM?

__________________
Mr. Ed (Mitch)

Date:
Permalink Closed

Wilbur wrote:

Academic success correlates inversely with the percentage of minorities. We have a high percentage and this is why our success is so low. Athletic success correlates directly with the percentage of minorities and this is why we've had a modest amount of success in athletic endeavors. I realize these facts are politically incorrect , but they are nevertheless true.
WILBURRR! Let me help you out on this. MIT and Stanford have a high percentage of minorities (especially of Asian descent). But I doubt that is what you mean. Our academic standing can not be attributed to the racial or ethnic make up of our student body. The overall preparedness of both our majority and minority students is wanting. We draw the vast majority of our students from the K-12 Mississippi school system, and that is a major challenge. Commissioners Bounds and Meredith have been making some encouraging sounds about joint efforts for improvement, but the road will be difficult...   

__________________
Angeline

Date:
Permalink Closed

Wilbur wrote:

Academic success correlates inversely with the percentage of minorities. We have a high percentage and this is why our success is so low. Athletic success correlates directly with the percentage of minorities and this is why we've had a modest amount of success in athletic endeavors. I realize these facts are politically incorrect , but they are nevertheless true.
I guess that's why whitebread states like the Dakotas do so well in educational achievement?  Give me a break - the issue is poverty, plain and simple.  While to a neophyte statistician there may seem to be a correlation between minorities (read: non-whites) and low academic achievement, the real correlation is between low median income and academic achievement.

__________________
Third Witch

Date:
Permalink Closed

Thanks, Mitch, I was thinking about Asian students too, just didn't go there. I should add that if my child of any race was a Merit Scholar I wouldn't send her to USM. BTW, we mention Xavier on here from time to time, and I think they give the lie to the canard that it's minority students who pull us down.



__________________
Invictus

Date:
Permalink Closed

Shop Work wrote:
May I add build more vocational education facilities.  Much of higher ed in this state is just vocational ed anyway.


Sorry but "CLR WORK" just scaled back the "junior college system." (For the uninitiated or totally ignorant, there is currently only one "junior college" left in Mississippi. The others changed their names & missions to "community colleges" about 20 years ago. So in a sense, CW's goal of scaling back the "junior college system" was achieved in the 1980s.)

I might also add that there is no "junior college system" in this state, although the community college presidents talk about it as if it were a reality. The truth is that each community/junior college has a separate, autonomous LOCAL board of trustees. The main function of the State Board for Community and Junior Colleges is to allocate legislative appropriations and coordinate certain accountability measures mandated by the Legislature. It is not analogous to IHL at all.

One key to cost effectiveness in the community colleges is the way salaries are structured. If you're an assistant professor with a few years' experience & a doctorate, you could be earning pretty much the same salary without the "publish or perish" rule. Of course, you'd teach only lower division classes. At the same time, the average CJC dean earns about 2/3s of what a dean at USM earns -- in many cases supervising far more students & faculty -- and the average CJC president earns about what a VP earns at USM. Do you think that money is buying quality for the universities? Don't make me laugh.






__________________
CLR WORK

Date:
Permalink Closed


Invictus wrote:
Shop Work wrote:May I add build more vocational education facilities.  Much of higher ed in this state is just vocational ed anyway.

Sorry but "CLR WORK" just scaled back the "junior college system." (For the uninitiated or totally ignorant, there is currently only one "junior college" left in Mississippi. The others changed their names & missions to "community colleges" about 20 years ago. So in a sense, CW's goal of scaling back the "junior college system" was achieved in the 1980s.)

I might also add that there is no "junior college system" in this state, although the community college presidents talk about it as if it were a reality. The truth is that each community/junior college has a separate, autonomous LOCAL board of trustees. The main function of the State Board for Community and Junior Colleges is to allocate legislative appropriations and coordinate certain accountability measures mandated by the Legislature. It is not analogous to IHL at all.

One key to cost effectiveness in the community colleges is the way salaries are structured. If you're an assistant professor with a few years' experience & a doctorate, you could be earning pretty much the same salary without the "publish or perish" rule. Of course, you'd teach only lower division classes. At the same time, the average CJC dean earns about 2/3s of what a dean at USM earns -- in many cases supervising far more students & faculty -- and the average CJC president earns about what a VP earns at USM. Do you think that money is buying quality for the universities? Don't make me laugh.







Of course you're still advocating the Community College system, which is just (as you point out) a name change from the JUCO system. Anything short of killing off the two-year schools will just perpetuate the stupid system we currently have.

There's no way Mississippi should have more than 4 Junior or Community College campuses, and there's no way that Mississippi should have more than four 4-year public colleges and universities.

Perhaps more vocational schools is the answer. We could use more mechanics and brick masons.

__________________
Horatio

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed


Angeline wrote:
Wilbur wrote:
Academic success correlates inversely with the percentage of minorities. We have a high percentage and this is why our success is so low. Athletic success correlates directly with the percentage of minorities and this is why we've had a modest amount of success in athletic endeavors. I realize these facts are politically incorrect , but they are nevertheless true.
I guess that's why whitebread states like the Dakotas do so well in educational achievement?  Give me a break - the issue is poverty, plain and simple.  While to a neophyte statistician there may seem to be a correlation between minorities (read: non-whites) and low academic achievement, the real correlation is between low median income and academic achievement.
Poor academic achievement for minorities remains a constant even when adjusted for family income. It is not simply poverty.

__________________
Is Too! Is NOT!

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed


Angeline wrote:  While to a neophyte statistician there may seem to be a correlation between minorities (read: non-whites) and low academic achievement, the real correlation is between low median income and academic achievement.


Horatio wrote:

Poor academic achievement for minorities remains a constant even when adjusted for family income. It is not simply poverty.



You say "potato," I say "patattah"
You say "tomato", I say "tomata"
Oh, let's call the whole thing off


__________________
Mr. Wizard

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed


Angeline wrote:

I guess that's why whitebread states like the Dakotas do so well in educational achievement?  Give me a break - the issue is poverty, plain and simple.  While to a neophyte statistician there may seem to be a correlation between minorities (read: non-whites) and low academic achievement, the real correlation is between low median income and academic achievement.


According to the latest rankings of states by educational achievement by Morgan Quitno Press, North Dakota comes in at #20 and South Dakota at #18. Why then do you suggest that these states do poorly in education? And are the poverty rates in these states particularly high? I'm hoping you didn't pick these states on the basis of their demographics and then proceed to denegrate their educational systems to make your point.

By the way, if you are free to refer to states with heavy white populations as "whitebread" states, is it okay for me to refer to states with large black populations as "dark meat" states? Or don't you appreciate symmetry?

__________________
LVN

Date:
RE: Football & Education
Permalink Closed

Actually, when I read "whitebread" states, I didn't think of race at all, but of actual midwestern, Scandanavian-based culture, a la Prairie Home Companion, where they supposedly eat tuna hotdish, jello salad and white bread.

__________________
Invictus

Date:
Permalink Closed


LVN wrote:
Actually, when I read "whitebread" states, I didn't think of race at all, but of actual midwestern, Scandanavian-based culture, a la Prairie Home Companion, where they supposedly eat tuna hotdish, jello salad and white bread.


Then I suppose Mississippi is either a "biscuit state" or a "cornbread state," eh?



__________________
Catfish

Date:
Permalink Closed

Invictus wrote:

 I suppose Mississippi is either a "biscuit state" or a "cornbread state," eh?
A hush puppy state.

__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.
USM Forum -- Message Board -> AAUP-USM MESSAGE BOARD -> Football & Education
Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse 		Powered by ActiveBoard