CoB Turning Phoenix - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Nov 3, 2005

CoB Turning Phoenix

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Finally some confirmation of what I heard last week. I heard this, too, but I couldn't imagine Doty giving in to Thames, since he's the defender of all that is good and holy.

However, one of my COB buddies told me that they (COB faculty) were being told that they have no choice in the matter -- their masters program will go online whether they like it or not. Who said this? Doty. Why? Shelby threatened to fire Doty for insubordination if Doty didn't get the masters in business online by next fall. Doty tucked his tail and ran. He's going to send the program to grad council even if it is voted down by the faculty.

I'm fairly concerned, because I know my dean will fold like a cheap tent as well. I can't wait to teach my 100-level course online as well as my in-person sections. I still don't know how I'm going to do lab experiments via internet.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

I have heard a little myself and will find out more.

I do hope non-COBers attempt to learn more as well. I find it a little disturbing than many non- COBers on this board continue to side with Doty b/c of the one or two occasions where he took on Thames publicly, all the while ignoring report after report that Doty can be one bad dude as well when he wants to be. When we do that to the COBers who try to provide info about Doty's antics, we treat them with much the same disregard as people like Lacy, Dews, Drews, Mixon, Warren, Brian, et al treat us. They side with Thames, all the while ignoring what we as USM faculty are trying to tell them. This is just my own $0.02, something I've been inclined to write for some time.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Here's some info. That the vote will not matter is straight from Doty's mouth to faculty. I've heard of some e-mails that paint him badly, but haven't seen them yet. They aren't circulating widely. Yes, this plan will extend to the undergraduate level. And, there is widespread opposition from faculty. This is a disaster in the making.

New COB (Doty) Misson: Building a Nightmare

Date: Nov 3, 2005

CoBers will never have to come to USM of JGH ever again. Heck, you could move anywhere you wanted. I would take advantage of this if I could.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Are alternative delivery systems, by definition, inferior? Is the faculty against them, per se? Is it possible that one can be against low quality programs and supportive of high quality programs, regardless of delivery methods? Is USM trying to do something unique or are there other comparable, or better, universities which serve as successful models? Has the havoc caused by the recent hurricane season had an impact on the perceived need for such programs?

Or is this thread simply more from the "vendettas are us" crew?

Date: Nov 3, 2005

I'm amazed too at the knee-jerk unwillingness to step, or even consider stepping, outside of the box. The focus should be on what is best for the student. Not every student can be in class during the day or even at night. For mature working students on-line classes, where feasible, can be a tremendous boon. I'm not talking about buying degrees, but why put your heads in the sand. Instead of slamming the concept at every turn, why not devote that negative energy into doing it right, doing it better, having quality control, and helping as many students as possible achieve their goals.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

CoEP fac wrote:

It seems that Doty has initiated a process to put all CoB graduate programs online, with one covering the UG curricula to follow. Everyone should contact a CoB associate and learn more. I plan to find out more.

Here is the text of the message Doty sent to COB faculty members

Hi all,

As many of you have probably heard, the CoB is currently exploring the possibility of developing the capability to produce video enhanced online courses. In a nutshell, this capability would allow us to make available to online students the opportunity to view from a remote location (via the internet) the actual face to face lecture, discussion, and student-professor interaction that occur in a corresponding traditional format class. Additionally, students in the traditional section of the course might be allowed to review the lecture and discussion after the class meeting to better master the course materials and improve their class performance. For cost and technological reasons, we may initially forgo the option of allowing the online students to view the traditional class in real time. However, the real time capability is attractive, and we will explore that option in the future. Dr. Williams has agreed to pilot our first experiment with video enhanced online courses this spring. Provided that we can acquire and install the technology in a timely fashion, we will offer a digital section of MBA 550 in January. At the current time we are focusing primarily on the MBA program although once established the video capability is completely transferable to the undergraduate courses we currently offer online. As we gain success with this approach, we will likely make the technology available to other colleges here at Southern Miss. It will take approximately two years to fully implement the MBA program so you may not have the opportunity to participate in the program for some time.

As is true with all new capabilities, there are many unanswered questions at this time. This week a committee is focusing on the technological challenges and I am trying to meet with the President and Provost to resolve the financial challenges that must be addressed prior to moving forward with this project. If we cannot resolve these challenges we can offer a more traditional online program such as the programs offered by other high quality providers of online business education including Arizona State, Florida State, RPI, the University of Florida, and so on. However, I believe the video enhancement will add a level of richness to our online offering that will distinguish our product.

Additional issues that must be addressed include protecting the video images from unauthorized copying, assignment of intellectual property rights, in-load versus overload course assignment and compensation, testing procedures, SACS criteria, and so on. It is likely that not all of these issues will be resolved prior to the first course offering. It is also likely that we will develop alternative methods for dealing with these issues as we gain more experience with the program and as more faculty become involved with the program. For example, it is unlikely that each faculty member will have exactly the same testing procedures. I have complete confidence in our ability to apply the continuous improvement logic and processes of the AACSB to this project and develop a high quality product that meets our state mandated objective of enhancing access to higher education throughout the region and state.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Again, unless one is opposed to the concept per se what is so unreasonable?

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Would someone who can post the oft heard of infamous e-mail about Doty's plan by L. Babin? That will also be of assistance here.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Rule of Reason wrote:

Are alternative delivery systems, by definition, inferior? Is the faculty against them, per se? Is it possible that one can be against low quality programs and supportive of high quality programs, regardless of delivery methods? Is USM trying to do something unique or are there other comparable, or better, universities which serve as successful models? Has the havoc caused by the recent hurricane season had an impact on the perceived need for such programs? Or is this thread simply more from the "vendettas are us" crew?

If this is all true, why not let a vote of the entire COB stand?

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Rule of Reason wrote:

Again, unless one is opposed to the concept per se what is so unreasonable?

Will this be a "1st in United States" program? Then the question comes up how many Tier I,II or III universities offer an online degree??

Does USM CoB aspire to be at the level of Wharton, Harvard or Phoenix, Phillips Business College?

Date: Nov 3, 2005

The problem with some top tier schools doing the typical online MBA is that their brand reputation is already established and there is often a hybrid approach for professionals and executives. USM has none really.

If you are going to get your degree online or at least part of it, why would you necessarily even bother with USM? The "experience" of watching a class as a video makes no difference. What value will this have in the marketplace once a student has a degree. A student shoudl get their online degree from a better university that costs the same.

My biggest fear is that the online aspects could dilute the already low value of a USM business degree. Students will have to start putting on their resumes that they actually attended class in person as opposed to purely online. This means you have a weak degree from a weak school.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

The best online business program is not as good as the face-to-face business program offered by the same school. Period. End of sentence.

Mississippi State already offers an online MBA. Why should we be pouring our slim resources into such a project? So that our chest-thumping alumni can boast that their MBA came from USM rather than from MSU? The people of Mississippi already have access to the MSU online MBA at in-state tuition rates. Do you really think we can provide the same quality at cheaper rates? Do we want to be the cheapest online MBA program around? How would you feel if you got your MBA in a face-to-face program from USM and found out that the onliners will get the EXACT degree you got? Does the majority of the needy working adult population described above have an internet service provider that is unable to access Mississippi State's system, or is there some other reason, because it appears to me that the MSU program meets the IHL mandate. Through MSU, anyone who wants an MBA program online can have access to one.

So, (1) face to face dominates online and (2) citizens of MS already have access to an online MBA. Why create a redundant, inferior product at a high cost (integrity and spent resources)?

Doty's plan is just an attempt to keep SFT off his back until he can find another job and jump ship. The CoB faculty will pay the price for this, if it goes through. They will be stuck with this garbage for some time.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

CoBers---Is it true that Johns Hopkins jettisoned its online MBA?
Found it unsatisfactory ?

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Rule of Reason wrote:

Again, unless one is opposed to the concept per se what is so unreasonable?

Students at distant locations will be able to view your location in real time via the web??? If you have 40 students in front of you...how big do you think your class just got by including the distant learners.

Until you've taught online, you should not jump on this bandwagon. Online instruction generally takes substantially more time than a face-to-face class...reading "web based dicussions," answering emails, putting "content" on the web etc...learning the software (WebCT, Blackboard etc). My sympathies USM COBbers

Date: Nov 3, 2005

I'm sure there are intellectual property rights to iron out, but I wonder about using someone's image without permission. If you wanted to take a picture of someone to include in your textbook, you'd have to get them to sign a release. Can a university just announce to faculty...We're going to record your lectures and store it on the web for students, and who knows who else, to access when they want?

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Outside Observer wrote:

I'm sure there are intellectual property rights to iron out, but I wonder about using someone's image without permission. If you wanted to take a picture of someone to include in your textbook, you'd have to get them to sign a release. Can a university just announce to faculty...We're going to record your lectures and store it on the web for students, and who knows who else, to access when they want?

This is why I asked my question on the "Intellectual Property Rights" thread the other day. I am a victim of a fascist regime!

Date: Nov 3, 2005

I always thought that individuals controlled the use of their own images. Might be able to sue for some of the proceeds the university generates from using your image!

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Online education is a variation of the correspondent courses that have been run through the U.S. Mail. Email is faster than Snail mail, but I doubt there are quality differences. In additional to being an inferior method of education, it is another scheme that reduces the commitment of the student to acquiring an education. Most university administrators view the process as limited to the commitment of university resources, and ignore the importance of the student’s commitment of resources in the process. USM already is making courses available at several different sites in the evening and at night for both graduate and undergraduate students. The preponderance of potential students are within an hour's drive of a site where the program is offered. The classes at these sites are traditional with structure and a routine that is condusive to learning. There is both rigor and the integrity of the testing and grading is the same as in the classes taught on campus. This cannot be duplicated through online offerings.

An additonal problem will occur if students, both undergraduate and graduate, are allowed to mix online classes with the classes taught on campus. Students will take the core courses online to escape the rigor of the on campus courses. Also, if core courses are offered online by USM, it will be hard to keep students from taking core courses online elsewhere and transferring them back to USM.

USM has a history of always trying to do more with no resources resulting in lower quality. The value added of online courses to the University is close to zero while the cost is considerable as we add positions to coordinate and mangement the numerous new programs.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Cossack wrote:

Online education is a variation of the correspondent courses that have been run through the U.S. Mail. Email is faster than Snail mail, but I doubt there are quality differences. In additional to being an inferior method of education, it is another scheme that reduces the commitment of the student to acquiring an education. Most university administrators view the process as limited to the commitment of university resources, and ignore the importance of the student’s commitment of resources in the process. USM already is making courses available at several different sites in the evening and at night for both graduate and undergraduate students. The preponderance of potential students are within an hour's drive of a site where the program is offered. The classes at these sites are traditional with structure and a routine that is condusive to learning. There is both rigor and the integrity of the testing and grading is the same as in the classes taught on campus. This cannot be duplicated through online offerings. An additonal problem will occur if students, both undergraduate and graduate, are allowed to mix online classes with the classes taught on campus. Students will take the core courses online to escape the rigor of the on campus courses. Also, if core courses are offered online by USM, it will be hard to keep students from taking core courses online elsewhere and transferring them back to USM. USM has a history of always trying to do more with no resources resulting in lower quality. The value added of online courses to the University is close to zero while the cost is considerable as we add positions to coordinate and mangement the numerous new programs.

Good points. It's all just more "customer driven" education watering down real education.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

CoH Next Stupid Thing flight 1 has moved to the gates. CoB Next Stupid Thing flight 2 is cleared to land.

Other Co* planes are circling.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Thumper wrote:

"The best online business program is not as good as the face-to-face business program offered by the same school. Period. End of sentence. "

Do you have any empirical evidence to support this assertion? I bet not. I doubt there is any empirical evidence to support your position. I realize this is the plantation and the preferred method of knowing is assertion based on authority. However, I am trained as a scientist and do not accept your position. I was educated outside of south Mississippi and do not accept your plantation logic. My unit offers an online degree and we believe it is a quality program. The assessment procedures imposed by SACS will address the potential for quality differences. If there are not observable differences in learning outcomes you cannot assert quality differences.

Did you know that a majority of the instruction delivered by Phoenix University is delivered face to face? Given the logic in this thread, we can maximize the difference between USM and PU by moving all of our education to an online format. How's that for an interesting twist?

My guess is that most of the people on this thread have not attempted online delivery -- I have. If an online class lacks quality and rigor it is the fault of the instructor, not the delivery format. From what I hear from students, USM does have problems in teaching quality, but most of those problems occur in face to face classes.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Does anyone know who is teaching the online course in Public Speaking? Also, I would like a report on how the online courses in Music where they teach students voice and to play musical instruments are going. Chemistry and Biological labs also appear to be great candidates for online application. I bet the group presentations in the Capstone course in the Business School are a real hoot online. The moral of the story is, "it does not matter if you put crap in a five pound sack or a ten pound sack, both bags are full of crap".

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Cossack wrote:

Does anyone know who is teaching the online course in Public Speaking? Also, I would like a report on how the online courses in Music where they teach students voice and to play musical instruments are going. Chemistry and Biological labs also appear to be great candidates for online application. I bet the group presentations in the Capstone course in the Business School are a real hoot online. The moral of the story is, "it does not matter if you put crap in a five pound sack or a ten pound sack, both bags are full of crap".

While I respect your right to an opinion, your logic is flawed. You are assuming the way courses have been taught in the past is the "best" way. Perhaps the music lesson could be conducted using webcams -- I'm not a music teacher so I don't know. Perhaps the business faculty could rely on individual presentations (or no presentations) versus group presentations. Again, I'm not an expert. Perhaps there are completely different approaches that can achieve the same learning outcomes. Just because you don't understand how to teach a course online does not mean it cannot be done with quality and rigor. Do not assign your limitations to a delivery approach you probably have not tried. Again, I ask you to provide empirical evidence to support your assertions. I simply do not believe there is any solid evidence to support the assertion that online instruction is necessarily lower quality or less rigorous than face to face instruction. Without such evidence, you position is unfounded. I suggest the moral of this story is gigo and that the delivery approach is not a causal factor.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

I think we all realize the online idea Doty is pushing is a load of horse #hi^. The only positive posts are Doty's own hit-and-run entries here, which are amusing. The CoB faculty will vote this down is a resounding way in the coming days and Doty will choose to push it forward anyway. That's when he will prove to many that he and Thames have so much in common. Things will be much more apparent then, for everyone, and that's a good thing.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Virtual Bull$hit wrote:

Cossack wrote: Does anyone know who is teaching the online course in Public Speaking? Also, I would like a report on how the online courses in Music where they teach students voice and to play musical instruments are going. Chemistry and Biological labs also appear to be great candidates for online application. I bet the group presentations in the Capstone course in the Business School are a real hoot online. The moral of the story is, "it does not matter if you put crap in a five pound sack or a ten pound sack, both bags are full of crap". While I respect your right to an opinion, your logic is flawed. You are assuming the way courses have been taught in the past is the "best" way. Perhaps the music lesson could be conducted using webcams -- I'm not a music teacher so I don't know. Perhaps the business faculty could rely on individual presentations (or no presentations) versus group presentations. Again, I'm not an expert. Perhaps there are completely different approaches that can achieve the same learning outcomes. Just because you don't understand how to teach a course online does not mean it cannot be done with quality and rigor. Do not assign your limitations to a delivery approach you probably have not tried. Again, I ask you to provide empirical evidence to support your assertions. I simply do not believe there is any solid evidence to support the assertion that online instruction is necessarily lower quality or less rigorous than face to face instruction. Without such evidence, you position is unfounded. I suggest the moral of this story is gigo and that the delivery approach is not a causal factor.

Virtual B, your posts are amusing. I really can't wait for this whole College --- what we know now as the CoB --- goes completely online with video taped lectures and some enterprising kid somewhere Napsterizes the whole thing and people halfway across the world somewhere make a fortune off of the pirated lectures. That will be hilarious.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Virtual Bull$hit wrote:

Cossack wrote: Does anyone know who is teaching the online course in Public Speaking? Also, I would like a report on how the online courses in Music where they teach students voice and to play musical instruments are going. Chemistry and Biological labs also appear to be great candidates for online application. I bet the group presentations in the Capstone course in the Business School are a real hoot online. The moral of the story is, "it does not matter if you put crap in a five pound sack or a ten pound sack, both bags are full of crap". While I respect your right to an opinion, your logic is flawed. You are assuming the way courses have been taught in the past is the "best" way. Perhaps the music lesson could be conducted using webcams -- I'm not a music teacher so I don't know. Perhaps the business faculty could rely on individual presentations (or no presentations) versus group presentations. Again, I'm not an expert. Perhaps there are completely different approaches that can achieve the same learning outcomes. Just because you don't understand how to teach a course online does not mean it cannot be done with quality and rigor. Do not assign your limitations to a delivery approach you probably have not tried. Again, I ask you to provide empirical evidence to support your assertions. I simply do not believe there is any solid evidence to support the assertion that online instruction is necessarily lower quality or less rigorous than face to face instruction. Without such evidence, you position is unfounded. I suggest the moral of this story is gigo and that the delivery approach is not a causal factor.

I grant that it's possible that two different approaches teaching could achieve the same learning outcome. In that case, though, the approaches will be differentiated by cost. I can't imagine that the total cost of the online approach is lower than that of traditional delivery. Having said that, the learning outcome of online has to exceed that of traditional delivery since it is the higher cost method, all costs considered. It actually has to be better.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

Virtual Bull$hit wrote:

While I respect your right to an opinion, your logic is flawed. You are assuming the way courses have been taught in the past is the "best" way. Perhaps the music lesson could be conducted using webcams -- I'm not a music teacher so I don't know. Perhaps the business faculty could rely on individual presentations (or no presentations) versus group presentations. Again, I'm not an expert. Perhaps there are completely different approaches that can achieve the same learning outcomes. Just because you don't understand how to teach a course online does not mean it cannot be done with quality and rigor. Do not assign your limitations to a delivery approach you probably have not tried. Again, I ask you to provide empirical evidence to support your assertions. I simply do not believe there is any solid evidence to support the assertion that online instruction is necessarily lower quality or less rigorous than face to face instruction. Without such evidence, you position is unfounded. I suggest the moral of this story is gigo and that the delivery approach is not a causal factor.

Shouldn't the "burden of proof" be on those pushing on-line education? The face-to-face instruction has centuries of evidence of its effectiveness. It is the new method that is in doubt and has to establish that it is valid.

A problem doing this at USM is the administration puts a higher priority on quantity over quality. Faculty are being pressured to give good grades and retain customers. As a result, good instruction and good students have a hard time separating themselves from the low quality that surrounds them resulting in grade inflation. In such an environment it will be very difficult to determine if on-line instruction is inferior or even superior. If it supplies more customers then by definition it is superior a USM.

Date: Nov 3, 2005

where was all of this consternation when world lit (ENG 203) was made an online course? what about composition 102 (ENG 102)? technical writing (ENG 333)? maybe some need to check out what we already offer online.