Hardy High West - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Aug 4, 2005

Hardy High West

Date: Aug 4, 2005

Angie Dvorak's old institution, Ashland Community and Technical College, had just such a program in the local high schools. I imagine it was her idea.

Date: Aug 4, 2005

I'd be surprised if they could find an instructor.

Date: Aug 4, 2005

What happened to the ANT 101 (or SOC 101?) course they originally planned to teach? Did Amy succeed in stopping that? I hope.
Folks this is all about headcount, headcount, headcount, and that's all.

Date: Aug 4, 2005

The Singing Brakeman wrote:

I wonder if Ole Miss has such an arrangement with Oxford High School. You'd think that the objective would be to get new students on the campus. Could it be that the real objective is to increase headcount?

I dunno if UM has dual enrollment arrangements with local high schools, but they do have an excellent summer college program for high school students. And yes, they give financial aid assistance. The big difference is on-campus residence.

The Legislature changed dual enrollment regulations a couple of years ago. Community colleges have been doing it for quite a while. It sometimes isn't the recruiting tool it's imagined to be: the "better" students who dual enroll frequently "go away" to college. But they go away with a few college credits.

The community colleges "bank" the college credit & do not transcript it until after the student graduates high school. I assume USM will have to do the same, unless the student has a 25 ACT (in which case the student can be legally classified as an early admission). At least one of UM's summer college programs requires a 25 ACT so the credit doesn't have to be "banked."

Date: Aug 4, 2005

I will be surprised if this program is not an overwhelming success. If I'm a student at Oak Grove who can go to a "better" school than USM, I view this an some "easy" and cheap college credit. If I'm going to USM, then it's cheap credit, even if I have to wait until I graduate JCJC to get it. Goodbye study hall, hello math and psychology!

Date: Aug 4, 2005

Doubting Thomas wrote:

I will be surprised if this program is not an overwhelming success. If I'm a student at Oak Grove who can go to a "better" school than USM, I view this an some "easy" and cheap college credit. If I'm going to USM, then it's cheap credit, even if I have to wait until I graduate JCJC to get it. Goodbye study hall, hello math and psychology!

Actually, the student could transfer the credit to JCJC (or if the student stayed properly in-district, to PRCC) & apply it toward an associate's degree. They wouldn't have to wait at all.

For a kid who would otherwise be f@rting around his/her senior year to take English IV, economics & American government (a whopping 2 Carnegie units & the only courses that most districts won't allow juniors to take), dual enrollment is a pretty good deal. It is also a good deal for school districts that don't have the resources to offer a large selection of AP classes. (I'm assuming Oak Grove isn't one of those, but I mention that as well.)

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Little old lady wrote:

What happened to the ANT 101 (or SOC 101?) course they originally planned to teach? Did Amy succeed in stopping that? I hope. Folks this is all about headcount, headcount, headcount, and that's all.

Yes Headcount. But we heard at a Faculty Senate meeting that the high schools also wanted something to "keep the students on campus in the afternoon". It seems some seniors finish at noon and then want to "run the streets". Parents and teachers liked this idea in part to keep them on the H.S. campus.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Yes, the college credit courses are a good deal for the students. They are half price and convenient with free parking and no commute. However, sitting in a high school classroom with a bunch of high school kids is hardly a college experience.

The bigger question is how good an idea it is for the university. The better Oak Grove students don't usually go to USM so it might make more sense to try to get them on the main campus in hopes that they might stay. Also, using an instructor to teach a handful of students off campus who could be teaching 50-100 students on campus makes little sense.

The two departments that can afford the luxury of offering off campus courses at high schools must have an abundance of surplus resources which could be reallocated to other departments who need them in order to serve their own on campus obligations. It sounds like USM's personnel resources are not properly allocated.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Since the Math department lost so many Profs in the last few years they don't even have the resources to teach their scheduled classes without using many adjuncts. I suspect they will use high school math teachers to teach College Algebra to the H.S. students. So neither the students nor the teachers will have to leave campus. A university experience---NOT.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

No, a regular Math department instructor is teaching the College Algebra class at Oak Grove.

LeftASAP wrote:

Since the Math department lost so many Profs in the last few years they don't even have the resources to teach their scheduled classes without using many adjuncts. I suspect they will use high school math teachers to teach College Algebra to the H.S. students. So neither the students nor the teachers will have to leave campus. A university experience---NOT.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Do you have facts to back up that statement?

Hwy 90 wrote:

"The better Oak Grove students don't usually go to USM so it might make more sense to try to get them on the main campus in hopes that they might stay."

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Hwy 90 wrote:

Yes, the college credit courses are a good deal for the students. They are half price and convenient with free parking and no commute. However, sitting in a high school classroom with a bunch of high school kids is hardly a college experience.

The bigger question is how good an idea it is for the university. The better Oak Grove students don't usually go to USM so it might make more sense to try to get them on the main campus in hopes that they might stay. Also, using an instructor to teach a handful of students off campus who could be teaching 50-100 students on campus makes little sense.

The two departments that can afford the luxury of offering off campus courses at high schools must have an abundance of surplus resources which could be reallocated to other departments who need them in order to serve their own on campus obligations. It sounds like USM's personnel resources are not properly allocated.

Paragraph 2 above strikes me as somewhat contradictory of paragraph 1. Does a proper "college experience" involve sitting in a lecture hall with 50-100 other students? Is utter lack of contact with the instructor what people consider to be a "college experience?"

How much does USM pay for a single overload/adjunct class? Given that baseline, I hardly think offering a couple of sections at OGHS would require "an abundance of surplus resources." Even at half price, the tuition would probably cover the cost, since the "indirects" (room, HVAC, electricity, janitorial, etc.) are being taken care of by the high school.

I do think the kids would be better served by on-campus classes, but considering the way h.s. seniors get to check out early & as someone upthread called it, "run the roads" these days, I can certainly see that aspect of holding the dual enrollment classes at the high school.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Info wrote:

Do you have facts to back up that statement?

My assertion is based upon many years of personal observation. The better students at Oak Grove have tended to go to State, Ole Miss or Milsaps as is the case with the better students all over Mississippi. As the community has become more affluent, this pattern has become even more pronounced.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Invictus wrote:

I hardly think offering a couple of sections at OGHS would require "an abundance of surplus resources."

It wouldn't require an "abundance of resources" if you had resources to spare. It is my understanding from another post on this thread that Math is already hustling to find adjuncts to teach their courses. If Math and Psy have faculty they can spare, let them have at it using their regular faculty. Using adjuncts would shortchange the OG students.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

I wouldn't want my daughter's first taste of college life to be be in a room or building she'd been taking classes in for eleven years. College is more than brick and mortar.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Emile wrote:

I wouldn't want my daughter's first taste of college life to be be in a room or building she'd been taking classes in for eleven years. College is more than brick and mortar.

If your daughter's been at the same high school for eleven years, I'd estimate that she's 25 or 26 years old.

(I'm just teasing. I understand your point. I don't think dual enrollment is supposed to give the students a taste of "college life." I think it's intended to give the more motivated students the opportunity to get a taste of college classes. There is a difference.)

Date: Aug 5, 2005

Invictus wrote:

I don't think dual enrollment is supposed to give the students a taste of "college life." I think it's intended to give the more motivated students the opportunity to get a taste of college classes.

Do you really think that the content of a college introductory psychology class will be very much different than a high school psychology class as currently taught? Some high school math classes are even taught at a higher level than some at USM. My guess is that this new Oak Grove program will give the high school students the impression that there is not much difference between high school and college classes.

Date: Aug 5, 2005

One Room Schoolhouse wrote:

My guess is that this new Oak Grove program will give the high school students the impression that there is not much difference between high school and college classes.

If there isn't much difference in a freshman class at USM & an advanced high school class, then that's the impression they may get, yes.

The chief difference in college & high school is, of course, the absence of in loco parentis. (Junior colleges tend to be a little heavy on the old "in loco", too, which may be one reason junior-level transfers to universities experience culture shock.) I dunno if it would be proper (or legal) to completely do away with that aspect of "control" for a group of high school students.

(Could let this pass without noting also that most high school seniors regard their parents as loco...

)

Date: Aug 6, 2005

Invictus wrote:

If there isn't much difference in a freshman class at USM & an advanced high school class, then that's the impression they may get, yes. ...

There is a difference if you do it right. For example, college level math begins with calculus. "College" Algebra and Trigonometry are not really college material. Both algebra and trig. are taught in high school. So "advanced" high school math (calculus which requires an understanding of algebra and trig.) is indeed above "college algebra".

This is happening more and more. High schools are teaching the better students college level material and colleges are teaching more and more remedial material. No wonder education is in such bad shape. The reason for this is colleges want more customers ...err students, and the only ones left didn’t prepare for college in high school.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

Scholar wrote:

This is happening more and more. High schools are teaching the better students college level material and colleges are teaching more and more remedial material. No wonder education is in such bad shape. The reason for this is colleges want more customers ...err students, and the only ones left didn’t prepare for college in high school.

Amen & amen!

To extend this, we hear all the bellowing & trumpeting about how tight budgets are in the state, yet the universities are expanding & duplicating postsecondary remedial programs that have, for many years, been the domain of community colleges. It's not just a question of whether universities ought to be playing the "developmental studies" game; it's a question of whether the universities have the expertise and the "abundant resources" (to borrow a phrase) to get into a game where the state already has plenty of more experienced players.

This state could save a lot of money & better serve a lot more of its citizens if it enforced a few common-sense concepts about "who should teach what" on postsectondary education.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

Invictus wrote:

Amen & amen! To extend this, we hear all the bellowing & trumpeting about how tight budgets are in the state, yet the universities are expanding & duplicating postsecondary remedial programs that have, for many years, been the domain of community colleges. It's not just a question of whether universities ought to be playing the "developmental studies" game; it's a question of whether the universities have the expertise and the "abundant resources" (to borrow a phrase) to get into a game where the state already has plenty of more experienced players. This state could save a lot of money & better serve a lot more of its citizens if it enforced a few common-sense concepts about "who should teach what" on postsectondary education.

Invictus:

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you mention that you had susbstantial CC admin experience? Miss is different than any other state that I have been in with respect to the inordinate political power the CCs have. I wish that your advice about "who should teach what" applied to CCs also. After visiting many CC campuses and speaking with admins there, it seems to me CCs are aspiring to be mini-Universities (come on, football, dorms, and bands?), rather than dealing with students in need or remediation or development, part-time students taking a course now and again, and "non-traditional" students who need to stay close to home. In Miss, however, there is a long tradition of going to a CC before university because "mamma and daddy did PRCC first" or "I know I have a 24 ACT, but I want to get cheap credits before going to UM or USM." I don't advocate that the CC budget be cut, but I do think that every student qualified and prepared to go to university should be afforded that opportunity, and advised to do so. And yes, I believe (and know) that the gen ed coursework offered at the CCs is softer than UM, MSU, and even USM. Thanks for letting me vent.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

GL wrote:

I believe (and know) that the gen ed coursework offered at the CCs is softer than UM, MSU, and even USM.

I beg to respectfully disagree, GL. If the CC's gen ed coursework were any softer than some I've seen at USM, it would turn to mush. I think you either underestimate the quality of CC coursework or overestimate the quality of USM coursework. Ask students who have experienced both. You might be surprised if you knew the names of some of well known Mississippi's CC graduates. And that includes some visible names right here in Nitchampburg.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

Invictus wrote:

we hear all the bellowing & trumpeting about how tight budgets are in the state, yet the universities are expanding & duplicating postsecondary remedial programs that have, for many years, been the domain of community colleges.

Unfortunately, you are correct. And now the high schools (e.g., Oak Grove) are duplicating college courses (e.g., USM Math and Psy) that have, for many years, been the domain of the community colleges and the four year colleges. It's not that Mississippi has no money for higher education. It's that it has no sensible plan. The universities are assuming the job of the community colleges, and now the high schools are assuming the job of the community colleges and the universities. I'd say a position freeze is in order.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

Considering what was said by Invictus and Tough Love, the community colleges may be the only Mississippi institution sticking closely to their legislatively mandated mission.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

CC Rider wrote:

GL wrote: I believe (and know) that the gen ed coursework offered at the CCs is softer than UM, MSU, and even USM. I beg to respectfully disagree, GL. If the CC's gen ed coursework were any softer than some I've seen at USM, it would turn to mush. I think you either underestimate the quality of CC coursework or overestimate the quality of USM coursework. Ask students who have experienced both. You might be surprised if you knew the names of some of well known Mississippi's CC graduates. And that includes some visible names right here in Nitchampburg.

The reason you do get so CC grads going on to university and then grad school is for one of the reasons I said. It's family tradition--and that leads to the political power of the CC's. Regardless, I have taught hundreds of CC experienced kids who ultimately show up on our doorstep, and I can assure you with 100% confidence that the gen ed course they get in my field at the local CC's is much, much weaker than the same 100 level course at USM. The data? Grad distributions, text difficulty (we use a mid-high level text, they use a low level text), writing requirements, and so on. Many kids that are used to A's and B's at the CC are shocked when then come here and get a D or F in one of our courses. If that is not your experience, your department needs to look at its class rigor. This is not to say that we don't also get many great kids from the CCs. It's just that the demands for courses that are supposed to be equivalent are just weaker in the CC (at least in my neck of the woods). But my wife has taken some courses at USM outside my area, and said they were easier than high school (she went to high school in Yankee Land in the 1970s). Before coming to USM, I'd adjunct at some really top notch CC's on the side, and my experience was that, overall, the courses were less than university (even USM).

Date: Aug 6, 2005

GL wrote:

The reason you do get so CC grads going on to university and then grad school is for one of the reasons I said. It's family tradition--and that leads to the political power of the CC's. Regardless, I have taught hundreds of CC experienced kids who ultimately show up on our doorstep, and I can assure you with 100% confidence that the gen ed course they get in my field at the local CC's is much, much weaker than the same 100 level course at USM. The data? Grad distributions, text difficulty (we use a mid-high level text, they use a low level text), writing requirements, and so on. Many kids that are used to A's and B's at the CC are shocked when then come here and get a D or F in one of our courses. If that is not your experience, your department needs to look at its class rigor. This is not to say that we don't also get many great kids from the CCs. It's just that the demands for courses that are supposed to be equivalent are just weaker in the CC (at least in my neck of the woods). But my wife has taken some courses at USM outside my area, and said they were easier than high school (she went to high school in Yankee Land in the 1970s). Before coming to USM, I'd adjunct at some really top notch CC's on the side, and my experience was that, overall, the courses were less than university (even USM).

This is my experience also, GL. In my area of science and math I have had students from CC with the first part of a 2-semester course sequence in which they received an A.  They then failed the 2nd course at USM because they didn't have the prerequisite knowledge.   Advising these students was also difficult because they have an inflated opinion of what they know and their skill levels.   After they fail they are angry with USM profs, not the CC that cheated them.

But this is being corrected. The push for enrollment is causing faculty to lower standards so these students do fail until they are juniors or seniors when it is then too late to change majors.   Clever how that works.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

GL wrote:

Many kids that are used to A's and B's at the CC are shocked when then come here and get a D or F in one of our courses.

It's highly unusual for a student to get a D or F in some departments. The grade distributions support my contention. I assume that information is still made available to the faculty. A student who once posted on this board pointed out that he achieved a 3.0+ GPA. Someone immediately pointed out that a 3.0+ would put him in the bottom half of the distribution. It sounds like you're in an area that is combating grade inflation like colleges used to grade where a gentlemen's "C" was acceptable. Just knowing that your department gives a liberal supply of D's and F's, I'll bet I could guess which department you are or are not a member.

Date: Aug 6, 2005

USM as an institution does not have tough grading standards. Period. Some faculty members do. Many do not. COST is not excluded.

Date: Aug 7, 2005

All Knowing Eye wrote:

USM as an institution does not have tough grading standards. Period. Some faculty members do. Many do not. COST is not excluded.

Like the hippie carpenter, I think you've hit the head on the nail. While there are things that institutions can do (or not do) to promote "toughness" (or lack thereof), ultimately the "rigor" of a class depends on the instructor. I think it's part of the principle of academic freedom. This applies at USM & it applies at CCs as well.

I do want to comment on the "inordinate political power" of CCs in Mississippi. To make that statement based on experiences in other states is unsound reasoning. You see, the Mississippi CCs grew out of the agricultural high school movement of the early 1900s & several are actually older institutions than USM. (PRCC has at times claimed to be the oldest public CC in the country, founded in 1909 & beginning college classes in 1925.) Most other states have much younger CC systems that were developed in the 1950s & 1960s as part of the "community college movement." This means that while other states are just now beginning to have a few CC alumni moving into positions of political influence, Mississippi has had them in such positions for a half century or more.

Additionally, the Mississippi CCs aren't governed by a strong state-level commission (like IHL) but rather have local boards of trustees appointed by the county supervisors. For quick lesson in Mississippi politics for "outsiders," in many respects county supervisors are the most powerful political officers in the state.

Finally, Mississippi CCs tend to have presidents that serve extended terms of office. (One president retired this year with about 50 years of total service & around 40 years as president of his college. Another is approaching that sort of tenure now.) This allows them to cultivate strong support in their local districts & the Legislature.

All that said, you can look at the per-student appropriation for universities compared with CCs. This figure varies year-to-year, of course, depending on the appropriation & the headcount/FTE formulas used to divide the pie, but right now a full-time academic (university transfer) student at a CC brings in less than $2000 in state appropriations. How much does USM receive per freshman FTE? Of course, the CCs do get local tax millage, but the end result is that CCs tend to average less than $5000/FTE student per annum. (And that figure is derived very basically by dividing total unrestricted E&G by the FTE enrollment.) Can USM come close to that cost efficiency?