10 Predictions for USM (2005-2010) - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Aug 2, 2005

10 Predictions for USM (2005-2010)

Date: Aug 2, 2005

Sorry, but USM will not get off SACS probation in September 2005. And it cannot go back on probation in Spring 2006. SACS makes both sorts of announcements in December. If USM comes off probation in December, it will have a year's reprieve. If it does not come off probation in December, it will have a year. One way or the other.

Your prediction #4 maybe very close to the truth.

Date: Aug 2, 2005

11. Don't forget the CoB is supposed to be ranked in the Top 100 by 2010. Me arse. I wouldn't be surprised if the graduate component goes away here too - and I say good riddance, the degree is not worth the paper it is printed on.

Date: Aug 2, 2005

OK, so let me rephrase that item. USM will come off of SACS probation as a result of the September 2005 review. It will be returned to probation status for one year as a result of the Spring 2006 review. After that one-year probation, it will be back in good standing.

Of course you probably knew what I meant but had to show how much you know about SACS to nit-pick like that.

Date: Aug 2, 2005

Nostradumbass wrote:

Of course you probably knew what I meant but had to show how much you know about SACS to nit-pick like that.

Actually, I didn't know you meant that. And based on your reference to a "Spring 2006 review," I'm still not sure what you're talking about. But who cares? Far be it from me to argue with a prophet.

BTW, I still think your prediction #4 is the one to keep a weather eye on.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

the fall 2005 review is solely for distance learning and off-site learning programs issue. our compliance review is in spring 2006. i've heard it speculated that the spring 06 site visit team will not even go to the coast campus because of the fall 05 visit that will primarily (if not solely) occur on the coast.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

number 4 should happen sooner rather than later.

usm has failed to deliver for the coast and other institutions in the state, and from outside the state, need an opportunity to respond.

A "Universities Center" concept, with institutions competing to deliver programs to the Gulf Coast, will be 100 times better than USM alone trying to block the development of programs for coast residents.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

coastliner wrote:

A "Universities Center" concept, with institutions competing to deliver programs to the Gulf Coast, will be 100 times better than USM alone trying to block the development of programs for coast residents.

I hope it works better than the one that is allegedly located on Ridgewood Road in Jackson. That one was a joke.

The "universities center" concept looks good on paper, but as Paul "Bear" Bryant once opined when a sportswriter told him the Bama team looked good on paper, "Football is played on grass."

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Shrimp Picker wrote:

I hope it works better than the one that is allegedly located on Ridgewood Road in Jackson. That one was a joke.

The Universities Center in Jackson on Ridgewood Road is not much more than a beautiful campus with lots of parking,a coffee shop, a public television station, some mens and womens rooms, and a group of unrelated offices and suites scattered up and down the hallways. Hardly a suitable environment conducive to education as it currently stands.

I suggest turning the Ridgewood Road location over to the Ole Miss law school and then turning over both the law school and the medical school to Jackson State. The current geographical configuration makes no sense as it. If Mississippi's system of higher education is to be reorganized, let's do it right this time. Alternatively, turn over the entire operation to Jackson State for their North Jackson facility. And oh yes . . . under any model adopted, move the IHL offices to Oxford so they'll feel at home.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

The "Universities Center" on Ridgeland Road in Jackson outlived its usefullness. JSU, with expanded programs in the Jackson community is meeting the needs that were previously met by other institutions at the center. USM is not meeting the needs on the Gulf Coast....therefore....a need exists for a "Universities Center"....so the coastal population can be served.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Planning Commission wrote:

Shrimp Picker wrote: I hope it works better than the one that is allegedly located on Ridgewood Road in Jackson. That one was a joke. The Universities Center in Jackson on Ridgewood Road is not much more than a beautiful campus with lots of parking,a coffee shop, a public television station, some mens and womens rooms, and a group of unrelated offices and suites scattered up and down the hallways. Hardly a suitable environment conducive to education as it currently stands. I suggest turning the Ridgewood Road location over to the Ole Miss law school and then turning over both the law school and the medical school to Jackson State. The current geographical configuration makes no sense as it. If Mississippi's system of higher education is to be reorganized, let's do it right this time. Alternatively, turn over the entire operation to Jackson State for their North Jackson facility. And oh yes . . . under any model adopted, move the IHL offices to Oxford so they'll feel at home.

I like the part about moving the IHL offices to Oxford so they'll feel at home.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

coastliner wrote:

The "Universities Center" on Ridgeland Road in Jackson outlived its usefullness. JSU, with expanded programs in the Jackson community is meeting the needs that were previously met by other institutions at the center. USM is not meeting the needs on the Gulf Coast....therefore....a need exists for a "Universities Center"....so the coastal population can be served.

Old timers will recall that the university center proposal was included as one of the options in the 1997-98 College Board Study on Gulf Coast educational needs.

Generally such arrangements don't work well due to the many problems of coordination among various institutions. From the student's perspective, the paperwork expands exponentially with each particpant institution. Recruiting faculty for such operations is very difficult, too. But that's not to say it would be better than the current arrangement.

USM is making such a mess of things down here, that I agree with Invictus that the University stands to lose control of the campus. Its a shame because under Fleming there was a commitment to the Gulf Coast and there were local administrators like James Williams who had the skill and wherewithall to grow the campus.

Since SFT took over, control of even basic scheduling matters has reverted back to H'burg. Awkward, slow, the current system places power in administrators who are at best, ignorant of what's going down on the coast campus, and at worst, are actively hostile to the entire operation. One solution would be site-based accreditation and site-based tenure.

Don't think Ole Miss and MSU aren't interested. MSU owns a huge tract of land on Hwy 49 that it could develop into a campus. And I know that there have been discussions with Khayat and leaders on the coast about Ole Miss taking over Gulf Park. It comes up when Khayat is down in Gulfport for Mississippi Power board meetings.

Its a darned shame--first and foremost for the people of Mississippi's second largest urban area. And it has been one missed opportunity after another for USM over many, many years. Of couse, those with really long memories will know that this isn't the first time SFT has screwed the coast with his incompetence. The last time, there was someone above him who fired him. This time he runs the show.

Its a no brainer that the Coast needs its own institution. But in the "beggar thy neighbor" system of educational funding in this state, it won't happen.

I remember that about five years ago the Greenwood Commonwealth editorialized against a creeping ninth university on the coast--too expensive they said. Makes me laugh, because the entire delta takes in much more than they collect in tax dollars. The whole region is one big corporate welfare queen with its cotton and soybean subsidies and federally financed levies. Without the Federal government that those self-styled Delta conservatives revile so much, the entire region would be underwater every spring. Hypocrites!

They don't have a problem spending coast casino tax money when its in their part of the state.

Well, this is long enough, so I'll shut up.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

coastliner wrote:

The "Universities Center" on Ridgeland Road in Jackson outlived its usefullness. JSU, with expanded programs in the Jackson community is meeting the needs that were previously met by other institutions at the center. USM is not meeting the needs on the Gulf Coast....therefore....a need exists for a "Universities Center"....so the coastal population can be served.

I won't address the question of whether the Jackson "Universities Center" outlived its usefulness, because frankly, I don't think it ever did very much except give a few folks in Jackson a warm fuzzy.

As far as USM meeting the needs of the Gulf Coast, quite truthfully, USM is not permitted to meet the needs of the Gulf Coast. The surveys conducted in the late '90s by both the community college group that brought the lawsuit against IHL and the Coast 21 group found that engineering was among the most-requested majors among business & industry on the Coast. Obviously, USM cannot offer those majors; only MSU & UM are permitted to have engineering schools. And naturally, the Coast feels that it "deserves" a law school, a medical school & a Division I football team.

At that time, I went through the list of majors offered at Gulf Park. After eliminating 31 flavors of education & business, it boiled down to three majors: education, business & nursing. Imagine Baskin-Robbins advertising its 31 flavors as plain vanilla, vanilla with peanuts, vanilla with chocolate syrup, vanilla with strawberry syrup, vanilla with beans, vanilla with ketuchup, etc. If a student wanted pistachio or rocky road, s/he had to go to Hattiesburg. I haven't gone through a USM-GC Bulletin lately, but I suspect the situation really isn't all that much different now.

That was the biggest shortcoming of the "Fleming-Williams Plan to Expand Gulf Park": there weren't any new majors being proposed, and certainly nothing unique to Gulf Park. Cynically speaking, the whole "expansion" of Gulf Park to the lower-division level was to collect tuition & fees. That struck me at the time as putting the cart squarely behind the horse.

In order to expand the number of programs at Gulf Park & truly meet the needs of the Coast, money has to come from somewhere. USM doesn't have the money (and for that matter, UM & MSU don't have as much "disposable money" as folks at USM think they have.) Local government on the Coast isn't really willing to ante up -- just ask anybody at Gulf Coast CC about getting millage from Harrison County. Remember all the drum rolling & trumpet blaring about the contributions to expand the USM-GC library? That was like squeezing blood out of a rock & it didn't involve serious bucks. Strap on a major program expansion, a serious facilities master plan & see what happens.

So... USM isn't permitted to meet the needs of the Gulf Coast due to IHL's restrictions on engineering & professional schools, nor is Mississippi really able to afford another university operation anywhere (be it on the Coast or in D'Lo). So we get stuck talking about "half fast" solutions like universities centers or "co-campuses."

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Meanwhile, MGCCC ranks among the top 100 associate degree granting institutions in the country. Is USM fighting this or using it as a lever?

Date: Aug 3, 2005

If USM were serious about developing a "real" university on the gulf coast, it would dump resourcdes into "real" programs instead of inventing new and unnecessary ones. Fundamentals first, ice cream toppings later.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Shrimp Picker wrote:

Meanwhile, MGCCC ranks among the top 100 associate degree granting institutions in the country. Is USM fighting this or using it as a lever?

MBGCCC is the only community college in the top 100 within the entire states of Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas! And USM-GC is still floundering.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Whoever was president at the time the coast campus was established should have had a meaningful plan for its development. Such a plan should have been articulated before the coast operation was entrusted to USM. It wasn't Fleming. Unfortunately, he wasn't given sufficient time to do anything down there.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Bassackward wrote:

If USM were serious about developing a "real" university on the gulf coast, it would dump resourcdes into "real" programs instead of inventing new and unnecessary ones. Fundamentals first, ice cream toppings later.

What do you mean by “real programs?” The coast campus is geared for non-traditional and part-time students (are there any dorms?). USM-GC best fits the mold of comprehensive colleges where professional degrees (business, education, and nursing) outnumber liberal art degrees. I do not see why this is a problem on the coast. There are many colleges in Mississippi where a person can get a degree in the arts and sciences, and I would argue that people who are most likely to major in one of these fields are more likely to travel to Hattiesburg, Starkville, etc., to obtain the degree. Local campuses meant to solve local needs for immediate education should focus on professional degrees.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

manova wrote:

What do you mean by “real programs?” The coast campus is geared for non-traditional and part-time students (are there any dorms?). USM-GC best fits the mold of comprehensive colleges where professional degrees (business, education, and nursing) outnumber liberal art degrees. I do not see why this is a problem on the coast. There are many colleges in Mississippi where a person can get a degree in the arts and sciences, and I would argue that people who are most likely to major in one of these fields are more likely to travel to Hattiesburg, Starkville, etc., to obtain the degree. Local campuses meant to solve local needs for immediate education should focus on professional degrees.

Real universities are centered around a core in the Liberal arts and sciences. What you are describing are "professional training schools". Nothing wrong with them, but they don't produce an "educated" individual. Confusing that with a "university education" is short changing the society who will have to pay for that confusion 20 years down the road. Why do these "training" programs have to be connected to a university in the first place?

Date: Aug 3, 2005

manova wrote:

What do you mean by “real programs?” The coast campus is geared for non-traditional and part-time students (are there any dorms?). USM-GC best fits the mold of comprehensive colleges where professional degrees (business, education, and nursing) outnumber liberal art degrees. I do not see why this is a problem on the coast. There are many colleges in Mississippi where a person can get a degree in the arts and sciences, and I would argue that people who are most likely to major in one of these fields are more likely to travel to Hattiesburg, Starkville, etc., to obtain the degree. Local campuses meant to solve local needs for immediate education should focus on professional degrees.

If remember correctly, the community surveys that identified engineering as a high-demand field on the Coast were identifying a need for local programs. Outfits like Ingalls, Halter Marine & Chevron have many promising employees that could benefit from getting an engineering degree & others who need advanced courses but who cannot be "spared" to relocate to Starkville or Oxford.

The big "problem" on the Coast is, quite simply, that if a student doesn't want to major in education, business, or nursing & cannot relocate (e.g., is married and/or working), that student is just out of luck. Well, not exactly ... William Carey, Tulane & South Alabama all seem happy to help.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Two notes:

1. It may just be me, but the tone if not the content of the original post on this thread sounded like FUD. Lots of us are working too hard to hear that our efforts won't/can't pay off. Things can only change if people change them--I've always wanted to be a thermostat rather than a thermometer.

2. Er, Invictus, you say, "I haven't gone through a USM-GC Bulletin lately, but I suspect the situation really isn't all that much different now [from the late 90s]." In the time since then, however, the university has substantially expanded its operation. Given your good reputation on this board as an educational pundit, I would hope you'd have a look at the current situation before you mischaracterize it.

Hi to everyone, by the way. I've been reading the board but not posting much, as I'm finally back from a pretty exhausting time away and just now taking over the direction of graduate studies in the English department on top of everything else. So far, at least, it doesn't seem to have affected my typing skills, but one could do worse than emulate Stephen Judd.

Cheers,

Jameela

Date: Aug 3, 2005

manova wrote:

USM-GC best fits the mold of comprehensive colleges where professional degrees (business, education, and nursing) outnumber liberal art degrees....There are many colleges in Mississippi where a person can get a degree in the arts and sciences

And there are many colleges in Mississippi where a person can get a degree in business, education, and nursing. USM/Hattiesburg is one of them. A college that offers primarily undergraduate professional degrees brings nothing to the mix. It is also a disservice to its students majoring in business, education, and nursing.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

My recollection is that the expansion of the coast campus to fresh/soph instruction would allow the hiring of more faculty and an expansion in the number of majors. I don't know if that's happened or not.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Most student's don't know what they will wind up majoring in when they enter college. The average student changes majors three times. Many students learn very fast that their initial major of choice is not what it was cracked up to be. Offering only professional degrees unduly restricts the students's choice.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Got an Education wrote:

Real universities are centered around a core in the Liberal arts and sciences. What you are describing are "professional training schools". Nothing wrong with them, but they don't produce an "educated" individual. Confusing that with a "university education" is short changing the society who will have to pay for that confusion 20 years down the road. Why do these "training" programs have to be connected to a university in the first place?

Do the business, education, and nursing majors in Hattiesburg get a "real university" education? What are the differences in requirements between the campuses?

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Jameela,

Good to see you back.

To continue with this conversation, what is happening to the Gulf Coast has happened to many major "spots" in many states in the past and present. Everyone wants in on the game, and as well they should since the typical student is not so "typical" any more. I just hate that USM lost their golden opportunity on the Coast because of their blackened administrational moves.

It's happening everywhere, but does "everywhere" have a website where it is discussed so eloquently from so many different points of view.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Jameela Lares wrote:

2. Er, Invictus, you say, "I haven't gone through a USM-GC Bulletin lately, but I suspect the situation really isn't all that much different now [from the late 90s]." In the time since then, however, the university has substantially expanded its operation. Given your good reputation on this board as an educational pundit, I would hope you'd have a look at the current situation before you mischaracterize it.

Howdy, Jameela! Good to see you post.

I'll have to take a look at a current USM-GC Bulletin for sure. (I added the statement you cited to let people know that it has been a while since I last "counted the flavors.")

Date: Aug 3, 2005

After reviewing the USM-GC website, here's what I found. Remember, my "lumping" of majors may differ from yours. Taxonomically speaking, I'm a lumper rather than a splitter by nature.

CoAL - 5 distinct majors

American Studies (someone please tell me what this is, BTW)

English (plain vanilla & with teacher ed topping)

History (plain vanilla & with teacher ed topping)

Paralegal Studies

Political Science

CoB - Someone must've decided to do away with the 31 flavors approach. No undergraduate (or graduate, for that matter) majors are listed on the webite. This seems to be more a deficiency in the website than anything else.

CoEP - 6 distinct undergraduate majors

Elementary Ed.

Special Ed.

Library Science

Child Development

Psychology

Technical & Occupational Ed

CoH - Only nursing is explicitly mentioned; the aspiring high school coach or secondary phys ed teacher has to head to Hattiesburg.

CoST - 6 distinct majors

Biology (available with your choice of 4 toppings including teacher ed)

Administration of Justice (Criminal Justice?)

Computer Science (noted "applied" - can someone clarify what that means?)

Geography (plain vanilla or with GIS topping)

Industrial Engineering Tech (somebody must've read the surveys)

Math (again, vanilla or with teacher ed topping)

I was a little surprised not to see chemistry or social work in the list.

Date: Aug 3, 2005

Are you sure that Library Science, Child Development, and Psychology are listed as being in CoEP at USM-GC? That would be an unusual home for any of them wouldn't it?

Date: Aug 3, 2005

No, with the reorganization after Thames took the power, they are all a part of the CoEP. Remember, we were flaunting our divide and conquer mode when the changes occured.