What everyone should have expected - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 22, 2005

What everyone should have expected

Date: Jul 22, 2005

You seem to have forgotten that many of us in town were your students. If we had fond memories of you and your classes, there is nothing anyone could say to convince us that you are the bad guys. I was in your classes. While I may not agree with Dr. Thames on everything, I had too many real jerks as teachers to believe that all the problems rest with him.

Town and gown wrote:

Moved from another thread. Should we discuss? This thread has been going on so long that I've lost track of what has and has not been said. But here is my 2 cents worth. Several months ago this point was made by someone else, but I think it bears repeating because it is absolutely true.Shelby Thames got the presidency without ANY support from the faculty and deans. It goes without saying that he always has been mean spirited and very, very arrogant, so what should we have expected? He immediately began to tear down the faculty in the eyes of the community and the IHL Board--if the faculty didn't want him, they must be lazy, old-fashioned, ignorant, etc. etc. Long before the dean firing and the Glamser/Stringer attempted firing, Thames and his minions were spreading this poison around. The rift was not opened by the faculty. Yes, there are weak links in every organization. I certainly know folks who work in the corporate world who I wouldn't want handling my affairs, doctors I wouldn't use, lawyers I wouldn't trust, and teachers I wouldn't recomment. But USM HAD a faculty that was much better than its reputation in the larger academic world--people like Neil McMillen who had won the Bancroft prize--like Andy Griffin who was invited to teach at Cambridge. And the faculty who are still there are good, hard working people--some with international reputations. They are suffering from the vindictive and revengeful spirit of a man who should have never been appointed. The faculty's problem is that they knew this from the "git-go."

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Former Student wrote:

...While I may not agree with Dr. Thames on everything, I had too many real jerks as teachers to believe that all the problems rest with him. ...

This statement is very confusing for me. What problems are you referring to? How did the faculty "jerks" contribute to the unmentioned problems? What did SFT do that you agree with and what things do you disagree with?

Without the particulars you seem to be saying things about what/who you like or dislike. For example, a student could say, " Professor X is a jerk. He gave homework at every class."

Please don't consider this a flame. I just would like to know what you mean by your statement above.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

I'd like to point out that any student who graduates from USM would have taken classes with a very small percentage of the faculty. Perhaps you actually had lots of lousy professors--it still doesn't follow that all 400-500 of them are lousy.

I suspect that the alumni or students who are complaining on this board would have felt the same way about the faculty at any school at which they attended. Did you love every one of your high school teachers? Maybe you should admit that you basically didn't like college. That's okay, college isn't for everyone. Just don't blame your feelings on USM.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

I'm glad you asked. A number of my teachers spent more time talking about Dr. Glamser and Dr. Stringer than the subject material. Other teachers just came in and read the text to us, then jumped down anyone's throat who dared ask a question. Then there were the faculty who talked about golf for most of the class, their grandchildren, and my all time favorites, those who tossed something on an overhead projector for us to copy. If anybody asked a question they were made to feel really stupid. Since none of us were really stupid we quit asking questions.

I never minded homework. I never minded studying. However, for too many of my classes I felt like I was doing it all on my own. This goes back to my original point, if the teachers were all well respected by their former students, you wouldn't being having this town/gown problem. If we believe what Town/Gown says, all of your former students are so stupid and weak minded that they fall for any line of propaganda and are incapable of thinking for themselves.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Does anyone know what the average score of USM faculty is on student evaluations? At the school where I teach, the evaluation results indicate our personal average for any particular class, plus the over-all averages of our department, our school, and the university as a whole. On a five-point scale, the average for the university tends to be above a 4, and the same is true in the other categeories. In other words, the vast majority of students at my school give the entire faculty a very solid B, while individual professors often come close to receiving A's. I've always been pleased to notice these averages, because I can guarantee you that many of the students offering these evaluations do not themselves earn anything close to Bs. The students seem willing to concede that faculty are doing their jobs well even when the students themselves may not be earning the highest grades. In other words, they do not seem to be rataliating for any low grades they might receive.

If USM releases information about university-wide averages, we would have a baseline by which to measure the comments of the displeased student in this thread. If there is statistical evidence that most students are displeased, then USM has a problem. If, on the other hand, most students (according to the evaluations) seem happy with the education they are receiving at USM, then the displeased student here is speaking mainly for himself.

By the way, in the state where I teach, graduates of universities are also surveyed to determine whether they feel they have received quality educations. The results are usually positive -- in some cases very positive. If MS has such a system, it would also provide the kind of objective evidence we need in order to evaluate the claims of the dissatisfied student on this thread.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

USM Sympathizer wrote:

Does anyone know what the average score of USM faculty is on student evaluations? At the school where I teach, the evaluation results indicate our personal average for any particular class, plus the over-all averages of our department, our school, and the university as a whole. On a five-point scale, the average for the university tends to be above a 4, and the same is true in the other categeories. In other words, the vast majority of students at my school give the entire faculty a very solid B, while individual professors often come close to receiving A's. I've always been pleased to notice these averages, because I can guarantee you that many of the students offering these evaluations do not themselves earn anything close to Bs. The students seem willing to concede that faculty are doing their jobs well even when the students themselves may not be earning the highest grades. In other words, they do not seem to be rataliating for any low grades they might receive. If USM releases information about university-wide averages, we would have a baseline by which to measure the comments of the displeased student in this thread. If there is statistical evidence that most students are displeased, then USM has a problem. If, on the other hand, most students (according to the evaluations) seem happy with the education they are receiving at USM, then the displeased student here is speaking mainly for himself. By the way, in the state where I teach, graduates of universities are also surveyed to determine whether they feel they have received quality educations. The results are usually positive -- in some cases very positive. If MS has such a system, it would also provide the kind of objective evidence we need in order to evaluate the claims of the dissatisfied student on this thread.

Fall 2004 numbers from the CoB (i.e., CoB means), scored on a 4-point scale:

1. Instructor treated students with respect --- 3.81

2. Instructor presented material in an organized manner --- 3.58

3. Instructor was accessible to students during office hours --- 3.74

4. Instructor included content that addressed stated objectives --- 3.74

5. Instructor explained course material in understandable way --- 3.44

6. Instructor explained how grades were earned --- 3.70

7. Instructor regularly met class as scheduled --- 3.89

8. Instructor provided useful feedback on performance --- 3.46

Average on 1-8: 3.66 (respondents = 3,447)

Date: Jul 22, 2005

... --- 3.46 Average on 1-8: 3.66 (respondents = 3,447)

Probably matches the grade point average in CoB, everyone is above average at Mississippi Southern

Date: Jul 22, 2005

obey wrote:

Fall 2004 numbers from the CoB (i.e., CoB means), scored on a 4-point scale: 1. Instructor treated students with respect --- 3.81 2. Instructor presented material in an organized manner --- 3.58 3. Instructor was accessible to students during office hours --- 3.74 4. Instructor included content that addressed stated objectives --- 3.74 5. Instructor explained course material in understandable way --- 3.44 6. Instructor explained how grades were earned --- 3.70 7. Instructor regularly met class as scheduled --- 3.89 8. Instructor provided useful feedback on performance --- 3.46 Average on 1-8: 3.66 (respondents = 3,447)

Thanks for these statistics. I will be interested to hear how the dissatisfied student who contributed to this thread squares his own dissatisfaction with figures like these.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

USM Sympathizer wrote:

... On a five-point scale, the average for the university tends to be above a 4, and the same is true in the other categeories. In other words, the vast majority of students at my school give the entire faculty a very solid B, while individual professors often come close to receiving A's. I've always been pleased to notice these averages, because I can guarantee you that many of the students offering these evaluations do not themselves earn anything close to Bs.

I don't have my data handy, but what you describe is the same for the CoST. The college teaching evaluation averages are average to above average, over 3.0.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Student wrote:

I'm glad you asked. A number of my teachers spent more time talking about Dr. Glamser and Dr. Stringer than the subject material. Other teachers just came in and read the text to us, then jumped down anyone's throat who dared ask a question. Then there were the faculty who talked about golf for most of the class, their grandchildren, and my all time favorites, those who tossed something on an overhead projector for us to copy. If anybody asked a question they were made to feel really stupid. Since none of us were really stupid we quit asking questions. I never minded homework. I never minded studying. However, for too many of my classes I felt like I was doing it all on my own. This goes back to my original point, if the teachers were all well respected by their former students, you wouldn't being having this town/gown problem. If we believe what Town/Gown says, all of your former students are so stupid and weak minded that they fall for any line of propaganda and are incapable of thinking for themselves.

But this has nothing to do with SFT. My experience is some (not all) of the worse teachers are the big researchers that SFT rewards so much. All of their efforts go to research and they are not putting in the time to teach a really good course. I must admit that some professors who did a good job (in my opinion) had students campaign to give them bad evaluations because they gave some students low grades.

I think the earlier poster, Former Student, described some poor teaching. But they shouldn’t back SFT just to get back at some poor instructors they had. They use “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” reasoning because of their intense hatred of certain faculty.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Another Student wrote:

My experience is some (not all) of the worse teachers are the big researchers

A.S., my experience is quite the opposite. I have observed that,fFor the most part, the better researchers are also the better teachers. Active researchers are abreast on the current research and they maintain their lectures in a state-of-the-art condition. From my perspective, active researchers are also more available to their students and to their advisees. The better students much prefer to take a course from a not-so-charasmatic lecturer who has made significant research contributions to the discipline than from a joke-telling, soft-shoe-shuffling baffoon whose outdated notes fade to yellow over time. My sample is not limited to USM. As you suggest, however, there are exceptions.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Been around the block wrote:

A.S., my experience is quite the opposite. I have observed that,fFor the most part, the better researchers are also the better teachers. Active researchers are abreast on the current research and they maintain their lectures in a state-of-the-art condition. From my perspective, active researchers are also more available to their students and to their advisees. The better students much prefer to take a course from a not-so-charasmatic lecturer who has made significant research contributions to the discipline than from a joke-telling, soft-shoe-shuffling baffoon whose outdated notes fade to yellow over time. My sample is not limited to USM. As you suggest, however, there are exceptions.

This is probably true for graduate courses or upper level undergrad. But the undergrad courses I had in science and math we barely even reach the 20th century science. Of course these were introductory service courses. The researches may be better in the upper level courses with students in that major where they can discuss current research.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Another Student wrote:

the undergrad courses I had in science and math we barely even reach the 20th century science. Of course these were introductory service courses.

I think you are probably right if the departments you're talking about are the ones that treat the large introductory service courses as a boobey prize to be taught by those not active in research.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

As I recall, it is on a five point scale, which makes a big difference in your conclusion.

obey wrote:

USM Sympathizer wrote: Does anyone know what the average score of USM faculty is on student evaluations? At the school where I teach, the evaluation results indicate our personal average for any particular class, plus the over-all averages of our department, our school, and the university as a whole. On a five-point scale, the average for the university tends to be above a 4, and the same is true in the other categeories. In other words, the vast majority of students at my school give the entire faculty a very solid B, while individual professors often come close to receiving A's. I've always been pleased to notice these averages, because I can guarantee you that many of the students offering these evaluations do not themselves earn anything close to Bs. The students seem willing to concede that faculty are doing their jobs well even when the students themselves may not be earning the highest grades. In other words, they do not seem to be rataliating for any low grades they might receive. If USM releases information about university-wide averages, we would have a baseline by which to measure the comments of the displeased student in this thread. If there is statistical evidence that most students are displeased, then USM has a problem. If, on the other hand, most students (according to the evaluations) seem happy with the education they are receiving at USM, then the displeased student here is speaking mainly for himself. By the way, in the state where I teach, graduates of universities are also surveyed to determine whether they feel they have received quality educations. The results are usually positive -- in some cases very positive. If MS has such a system, it would also provide the kind of objective evidence we need in order to evaluate the claims of the dissatisfied student on this thread. Fall 2004 numbers from the CoB (i.e., CoB means), scored on a 4-point scale: 1. Instructor treated students with respect --- 3.81 2. Instructor presented material in an organized manner --- 3.58 3. Instructor was accessible to students during office hours --- 3.74 4. Instructor included content that addressed stated objectives --- 3.74 5. Instructor explained course material in understandable way --- 3.44 6. Instructor explained how grades were earned --- 3.70 7. Instructor regularly met class as scheduled --- 3.89 8. Instructor provided useful feedback on performance --- 3.46 Average on 1-8: 3.66 (respondents = 3,447)

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Been around the block wrote:

Another Student wrote: My experience is some (not all) of the worse teachers are the big researchers A.S., my experience is quite the opposite. I have observed that,fFor the most part, the better researchers are also the better teachers. Active researchers are abreast on the current research and they maintain their lectures in a state-of-the-art condition. From my perspective, active researchers are also more available to their students and to their advisees. The better students much prefer to take a course from a not-so-charasmatic lecturer who has made significant research contributions to the discipline than from a joke-telling, soft-shoe-shuffling baffoon whose outdated notes fade to yellow over time. My sample is not limited to USM. As you suggest, however, there are exceptions.

An undergraduate who does want to have contact with researchers, in and out of class, would be better off attending a small liberal arts school. Other than the opportunity to work side by side with active researchers, and attend their classes and seminars, a large research university has very little else to offer.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Size doesn't count wrote:

Other than the opportunity to work side by side with active researchers, and attend their classes and seminars, a large research university has very little else to offer.

Except maybe the braggin' rights to a major football program

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Size doesn't count wrote:

Other than the opportunity to work side by side with active researchers, and attend their classes and seminars, a large research university has very little else to offer.

Um, since when has USM been a "large" research university?

Levity aside, the vast majority of students who take a course in any given department take the intro classes for nonmajors. That's a given, regardless of the department, unless its something like polymer science that doesn't have intro classes for nonmajors. The "opportunity to work side by side with active researchers" is utterly unimportant in those classes. For the most part, undergraduate majors don't really work "side by side with active researchers" very much, either.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Remember that students EARN GRADES. Faculty do not give grades. I am sorry that so many individuals had bad experiences in some classes. My impression is that for the most part, USM has many, many excellent teachers who really care about their students and want them to succeed in their classes. Many teachers receive notes, emails, and personal visits from former students who tell them how much they learned in classes and how much they appreciate their professors. We all know that it is easier to develop working relationships with faculty in one's major. One has a vested interest.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

As I read this thread I started to think about my years at USM. It was long enough ago that we were on the quarter system, but I only remember a couple of teachers that were jerks.

Some expected a lot of work and they wanted clearly stated questions in class. In the real world (which includes business, government, and academics) it is a plus to ask questions that are insightful and show you have read the background material.

As for off the topic discussion some of that part of being around people. It is not something that only happens in a classroom.

To the current students and recent graduates remember what this is all about, the integrity of your degree. For me it is not that great a concern, I have established my career using what I learned at USM to gain credentials that make where I got my undergraduate degree less important.

When the faculty complain about lowered standards remember they are the ones that are investing 10,20,30 or more years of their professional lives to the institution, and it is their reputation that hangs in the balance when you get shortchanged.

Dr. Thames is praised for finally running the University like a business, this is a huge misconception. A University should not be run like a business because it is not a business. There should be a sense of financial responsibility and accountability in the administration of any institution but to say everything should be run like a business illustrates how ignorant (I use this term to describe one who ignores, not one who is stupid.) many people are.

There are many institutions that should not be run like a business. A family does not dismiss members that are not showing a profit, an elementary teacher does not teach only the students that bring apples, a church does not restrict the sermon to only those who have tithed, the military does not select objectives based on a balance sheet.

A University must be allowed to be what it is; a unique place of learning and growth for everyone: students, faculty, administration, and community.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Invictus wrote:

Um, since when has USM been a "large" research university?

Do any Mississippi institutions fit the description of a "large" research university? If so, which one(s)? What do you mean by large? Size of the student body? Equipment and facilities? Grants and research dollars? I'm thinking Michigan, Cal-Berkley, MIT, UNC, Texas, Texas A&M, Washington, or closer to home Georgia Tech, Florida, maybe even LSU, but nothing in Mississippi.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Invictus wrote:

For the most part, undergraduate majors don't really work "side by side with active researchers" very much, either.

Then what academic "edge" does USM have?

Date: Jul 22, 2005

USM is cheap, close to home, easy to get into, easy to get above average grades and get out, bars in H'burg don't shut down until 2, the football team ain't great but ain't bad either, we have the largest Starbuck's in MS.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

CoB wrote:

As I recall, it is on a five point scale, which makes a big difference in your conclusion. obey wrote: USM Sympathizer wrote: Does anyone know what the average score of USM faculty is on student evaluations? At the school where I teach, the evaluation results indicate our personal average for any particular class, plus the over-all averages of our department, our school, and the university as a whole. On a five-point scale, the average for the university tends to be above a 4, and the same is true in the other categeories. In other words, the vast majority of students at my school give the entire faculty a very solid B, while individual professors often come close to receiving A's. I've always been pleased to notice these averages, because I can guarantee you that many of the students offering these evaluations do not themselves earn anything close to Bs. The students seem willing to concede that faculty are doing their jobs well even when the students themselves may not be earning the highest grades. In other words, they do not seem to be rataliating for any low grades they might receive. If USM releases information about university-wide averages, we would have a baseline by which to measure the comments of the displeased student in this thread. If there is statistical evidence that most students are displeased, then USM has a problem. If, on the other hand, most students (according to the evaluations) seem happy with the education they are receiving at USM, then the displeased student here is speaking mainly for himself. By the way, in the state where I teach, graduates of universities are also surveyed to determine whether they feel they have received quality educations. The results are usually positive -- in some cases very positive. If MS has such a system, it would also provide the kind of objective evidence we need in order to evaluate the claims of the dissatisfied student on this thread. Fall 2004 numbers from the CoB (i.e., CoB means), scored on a 4-point scale: 1. Instructor treated students with respect --- 3.81 2. Instructor presented material in an organized manner --- 3.58 3. Instructor was accessible to students during office hours --- 3.74 4. Instructor included content that addressed stated objectives --- 3.74 5. Instructor explained course material in understandable way --- 3.44 6. Instructor explained how grades were earned --- 3.70 7. Instructor regularly met class as scheduled --- 3.89 8. Instructor provided useful feedback on performance --- 3.46 Average on 1-8: 3.66 (respondents = 3,447)

The pre-SFT form was a 47 (or so) question form, and a 5 point scale. SFT instituted the university wide 8 question form that graded on a 4 point scale. The post by "obey" is indeed correct (for CoB). I just checked my printout.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Student wrote:

A number of my teachers spent more time talking about Dr. Glamser and Dr. Stringer than the subject material. Other teachers just came in and read the text to us, then jumped down anyone's throat who dared ask a question. Then there were the faculty who talked about golf for most of the class, their grandchildren, and my all time favorites, those who tossed something on an overhead projector for us to copy. If anybody asked a question they were made to feel really stupid. Since none of us were really stupid we quit asking questions

If you were exaggerating here about the size of a fish you caught, I would characterize that as your engaging in a bit of hyperbole and think no harm done. But when you make an hysterical accusation that "a number" of you teachers chose to spend a majority of your time in class discussing the matter of Glamser and Stringer, another word comes to mind. Here your exaggeration serves a purpose, specifically that of defaming our faculty. Do you really mean to say that one or more of your professors spent most of your class time talking about golf? I would only believe this if the course was a physical education class and golf was what the course was about. And who the hell spends most of his lecture time discussing his grandchildren? In short, I think you are telling lies.

If it has been your experience that your professors have wasted your time by talking about things irrelevant to the course content during class, then I think you have a legitimate complaint. But your wild exaggerations undercut the credibility of your case.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Student wrote:

I never minded homework. I never minded studying. However, for too many of my classes I felt like I was doing it all on my own.

College requires a higher level of independence than high school. Grad school even more. The eventual goal is for you to be able to teach yourself, to be an independent thinker.

If you felt like you weren't getting what you needed in class, did you ask for help? Did you visit the professor during their office hours?

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Wal-Mart U Student wrote:

USM is cheap, close to home, easy to get into, easy to get above average grades and get out, bars in H'burg don't shut down until 2, the football team ain't great but ain't bad either, we have the largest Starbuck's in MS.

Thanks, W-MUS. That pretty much sums it up.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Wal-Mart U Student wrote:

USM is cheap, close to home, easy to get into, easy to get above average grades and get out, bars in H'burg don't shut down until 2, the football team ain't great but ain't bad either, we have the largest Starbuck's in MS.

And I shaved my legs for this?

Date: Jul 22, 2005

As I gear up to finish my final undergrad semester at USM I can honestly say that, yes, I have had a few professors that I did not think very highly of. That being said, the number of great professors I had far outweighs the bad ones. No one is perfect which means that no faculty (and student body) is going to be either. You have to accept it, get over it, and learn from it.

Date: Jul 22, 2005

Silence Dogood wrote:

As I gear up to finish my final undergrad semester at USM I can honestly say that, yes, I have had a few professors that I did not think very highly of. That being said, the number of great professors I had far outweighs the bad ones. No one is perfect which means that no faculty (and student body) is going to be either. You have to accept it, get over it, and learn from it.

A few of the professors I detested as an undergraduate I now view to be among the best I ever had; and some of those I viewed as the best I now view as shallow. I don't think one can get a proper prespective on which professor is good and which is bad until some years after graduation.