Grimes sucker punches CoB again.... - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: May 17, 2005

Grimes sucker punches CoB again....

Date: May 17, 2005

Why does Grimes even care?

We've generally assumed that he was just carrying out orders from Ken Malone when he issued the memo.

The only thing of last significance Grimes could get from sticking it to the CoB in such a fashion is publicly acknoweldged membership in the henchbunch. Which, in turn, means that he will be persona non grata with anyone who replaces Shelby Thames--and the USM faculty who remain after Thames is gone will want nothing to do with him.

Robert Campbell

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"Why does Grimes even care? We've generally assumed that he was just carrying out orders from Ken Malone when he issued the memo. The only thing of last significance Grimes could get from sticking it to the CoB in such a fashion is publicly acknoweldged membership in the henchbunch. Which, in turn, means that he will be persona non grata with anyone who replaces Shelby Thames--and the USM faculty who remain after Thames is gone will want nothing to do with him. Robert Campbell"

Robert, I am somewhat familiar with the issue raised by this thread. A colleague in the CoB told me that their students might get hurt in this (Grimes) battle if even 2 or 3 committments to teach this summer aren't held. With the SACS probation, turning to GAs or other local talent there will be very problematic. Exline reportedly already has some full-time instructors in the college getting extra coursework done.

Who knows what JG is up to or who he's working for on this one.

Date: May 17, 2005

for us non-COBers, what's the issue?

Date: May 17, 2005

Sorry,

the only thing of lasting significance...

RC

Date: May 17, 2005

When Grimes was appointed Provost I was delighted. I thought he was a nice guy and a good scientist, and he liked to party and drink. Then, as the first year progressed, I thought he was in way over his head and needed/wanted out. He actually seemed clueless about the effect the Thames decisions were having on the university and about the personal/personnel toll they were taking. Then as the second year progressed, I realized that he had to be one of the bunch. He may not be as cagey as they are, but by staying in when he doesn't have to do so (he had serious research and grants), he must be just as mean and vengeful as them all. Consequently, I'm not surprised at anything he does.

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Inside the mind
"When Grimes was appointed Provost I was delighted. I thought he was a nice guy and a good scientist, "

I thought that at first too. I was wrong.

Date: May 17, 2005

Just heard the HA has been contacted. Another story.

Date: May 17, 2005

So...this is about some COB faculty being told they would have summer courses by doty...now grimes is pulling the funding? and these faculty are being left high and dry at the last minute?

Date: May 17, 2005

Inside the mind,

I posted this last week. Just like you I didn't think JM was a bad guy at first. Learned otherwise. Things just won't let up around here.

Ok, I agree with you. We're just lucky such a mean-spririted person like Grimes is "out of the loop."

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Inside the mind
"When Grimes was appointed Provost I was delighted. I thought he was a nice guy and a good scientist, and he liked to party and drink. Then, as the first year progressed, I thought he was in way over his head and needed/wanted out. He actually seemed clueless about the effect the Thames decisions were having on the university and about the personal/personnel toll they were taking. Then as the second year progressed, I realized that he had to be one of the bunch. He may not be as cagey as they are, but by staying in when he doesn't have to do so (he had serious research and grants), he must be just as mean and vengeful as them all. Consequently, I'm not surprised at anything he does. "

Think about this . . . Recall that Grimes (like Timmay) was co-opted into his present position. Thames brought them on board (a promotion) and then eliminated the colleges over which both presided. Once promoted, it is doubtful that either really cared about the elimination of their respective colleges. Now, however, he can't return - his college no longer exists. If he goes back now it will be a major step down in terms of status and pay. I bet he now wishes that he had not agreed to the consolidation plan. He is in a catch 22 - and one he rightfully deserves.

Date: May 17, 2005

I think the pay is being pulled for faculty who get paid for NOT teaching. CoB faculty have been getting summer pay to boost their salaries for fall and spring classes. This is something that Gunther did and Doty has continued. If someone is REALLY teaching this summer, they will get paid and the students won't suffer.

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: In the Know
"I think the pay is being pulled for faculty who get paid for NOT teaching. CoB faculty have been getting summer pay to boost their salaries for fall and spring classes. This is something that Gunther did and Doty has continued. If someone is REALLY teaching this summer, they will get paid and the students won't suffer."

Try again. The adverse effects of LSMs departure are already apparent.

Date: May 17, 2005

bidness 16--if you know what is going on, please share. So far there's been a real lack of details about what the summer pay issue is.

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: In the Know
"I think the pay is being pulled for faculty who get paid for NOT teaching. CoB faculty have been getting summer pay to boost their salaries for fall and spring classes. This is something that Gunther did and Doty has continued. If someone is REALLY teaching this summer, they will get paid and the students won't suffer."

The COB faculty wants to get full time pay for teaching a part time schedule. Sorry I'm having trouble digging up whole lot of sympathy for my colleagues in COB.

Date: May 17, 2005

T&M,

That was better. Do you folks get paid by the hour or by the post? I've got an article in mind for The Journal of Internet Compensation. Something along the lines of "The Relative Productivity of Trolls on Internet Message Boards: Piece Rate vs. Hourly Rate Compensation Schemes."

Have fun folks.

Date: May 18, 2005

I think what's unclear to most posters is why would COB faculty get paid for not teaching in the summer? Did they teach an extra course during the year and "bank" hours for the summer?

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Outside Observer
"I think what's unclear to most posters is why would COB faculty get paid for not teaching in the summer? Did they teach an extra course during the year and "bank" hours for the summer?"

No they don't teach an extra course during the year. They expect to get paid for a full load and teach part time because that's what they have been doing.

Date: May 18, 2005

Doesn't that depend how you define a full load? I've heard the issue has to do, once again, with micromanagement from the dome and an inability to set agreed upon objectives and then allow the individual colleges/departments to manage to them in the most efficient manner.

Oh, and then there's the revenge factor of course.

Date: May 18, 2005

Outside Observer, at the risk of being flamed by posters, I want to try and provide some answers. Several years ago, Aubrey Lucas and the then college dean (Black) worked out a summer pay plan for the old CBA that allowed Black to pay research active faculty in the college 3/3 summer pay (accord to their rank) for a 2/3 teaching load (i.e., teach 2, paid for 3). At places where summer pay is decent (based on %s of 9-month scale), the current pay system at USM and those places works out about the same for large numbers of USM faculty. Less so for the old CBA (now the CoB), and Lucas understood this to be a potential problem in hiring in the old CBA.

In the current environment, we're talking about $3,150 (before taxes) for assistant professors who teach in the CoB. Here's what I think Lucas and Black understood. If you check all the departures lists that get posted to this board, you will see some attrition in the CoB, though not as much perhaps as some other colleges. The one CoB department that does stick out is finance, where salaries are highest and this summer pay deal doesn't help at all. Even with this summer pay deal, there have only been an undergrad finance class taught in the summer by a tenured/tenure track faculty in the last decade. None of the remaining finance faculty in these categories have ever taught an ug class in the summer, and none will this year (I mention ug classes b/c there has been one MBA class taught by the group each summer, but as of a few years ago none agree to do it anymore). There is talk of scant teaching in all departments now, beginning next year, with Grimes' action.

More on the deal. As I note above, Lucas helped craft the deal, a part of which says that the cutoff for a summer class to "make" in the old CBA (now CoB) has to be 2.0 to 2.5 times larger than across the rest of the university. As a result, CoB still generates as much net revenue during the summer as any other unit around. If you visit Greene Hall in summer, you will see fewer classes (as elsewhere), but their size looks similar to (if not even larger than) a fall/spring offering.

One of the reasons the attrition on the various lists for the CoB is a little lower is that there was a huge flight from the college right when the economy turned down (around 2000-2001), just before Thames took over. Alvin Williams, chair of marketing, brought three young new assistant profs in around 1997-1998. They were making about $72,000 (9-mo.) in 2000, and over the course of a single weekend (Fri.-Mon.), all 3 took jobs elsewhere (it has been posted here by someone else the other day in another thread about something else --- Miami, Oklahoma State, Illinois State). One of them took a 9-month salary of $100,000, with a deal to get three straight summers at full pay with no teaching, for a total of $120,000 for the first three years. By the fourth year, the person's 9-month salary was expected to be closer to the 12-mo. total than the 9-mo. total, so summer teaching might never take place (and if so, the person would be over $130K for 12-months).

There is someone from the CoB on one of babbs lists that left USM after 2002 (under Thames) during the year of his 3rd year review (earning about $75,000 for 9 months at the time) who now, at a Tier III university (same as USM when he left), earns $154,000 for 9 months, and near $175,000 with summer pay (and at a place where they complain about summer pay).

I know I'll get flamed, but just wanted to give some background to the Lucas deal for those who didn't know about it. I think knowledge of it outside the CoB was fairly widespread before all of the Thames attrition. With so many new faculty around everywhere, knowledge of anything at USM is at all time low levels.

As the first post seems to indicated, this arrangement is now officially dead.

Date: May 18, 2005

There is a significant difference in how Business profs prefer to teach compared to science. In business, a prof will prefer to teach a single large section rather than two smaller ones. In sciences, the reverse is true. Many universities have tried to structure the rewards system to recognize this. The factor of 2.5 is not uncommon (teach more than twice as many students to have it recognized as the equivalent of teaching two sections.)

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: View from a Distance
"There is a significant difference in how Business profs prefer to teach compared to science. In business, a prof will prefer to teach a single large section rather than two smaller ones. In sciences, the reverse is true. Many universities have tried to structure the rewards system to recognize this. The factor of 2.5 is not uncommon (teach more than twice as many students to have it recognized as the equivalent of teaching two sections.) "

VfaD, you are right. I have a friend in a business college in the SEC that was allowed to double the size of his fall sections, teach one additional regular-sized course in the fall, and they gave him the spring off every year.

Date: May 18, 2005

The issue is still one of autonomy and being held accountable rather than micromanaging form the dome. Why is it that a common Thames tactic is to take something that isn't borken and fix it?

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Time and money
"No they don't teach an extra course during the year. They expect to get paid for a full load and teach part time because that's what they have been doing."

What about summer pay for research? Could this be what some of them are doing?

Date: May 18, 2005

from and broken

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: ABD
"What about summer pay for research? Could this be what some of them are doing? "

I take it that is what they are doing. Thames and crew are wrecking balls; all there is to it.

Date: May 18, 2005

old business confirms what i heard. the sad part of it is that it reflects a common USM practice. cut deals with a college or within a college instead of trying to solve systemic problems. there is a systemic problem with summer salaries that is not limited to COB. the faculty senate some 10 years brought it up, but it goes ignored. USM solves (or tries to solve) COB's problem by cutting a deal with them not available in other colleges. in my COAL discipline i don't have to leave the state and get a better deal at MSU or UM--those places you get paid 1/9 of your 9-months salary for each summer class you teach--it's capped at 3 courses (1/3 of your 9-month salary). i've heard about departments in Ed & Psych losing candidates to MSU or UM precisely because summer salaries are so low. salaries are low in all colleges not just COB, so why not make such a deal available to all colleges? because it's not the USM way. (and i won't get into that wonderful USM narcotic--"summer school profit").

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: States' Rights
"The issue is still one of autonomy and being held accountable rather than micromanaging form the dome. Why is it that a common Thames tactic is to take something that isn't borken and fix it? "

As is so often the case with this administration, the real problem is how the change was made -- right before the summer term is to begin after people had already made plans for the summer. If the special deal Business had for summer teaching is unacceptable, and you can make a good argument to that effect, make the change effective next summer. Let
this summer go, and tell people it's the last time. Again, we are faced with the gang who can't shoot straight (metaphor alert).

If Business salaries are not competitive enough to attract and retain faculty, then raise nine-month salaries rather than use some back door arrangement. The other approach is to peg summer pay to nine-month salaries by percentage. Something like 7-8% per course up to three
courses would do it.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Bull in a China Shop
" As is so often the case with this administration, the real problem is how the change was made -- right before the summer term is to begin after people had already made plans for the summer. If the special deal Business had for summer teaching is unacceptable, and you can make a good argument to that effect, make the change effective next summer. Let this summer go, and tell people it's the last time. Again, we are faced with the gang who can't shoot straight (metaphor alert). If Business salaries are not competitive enough to attract and retain faculty, then raise nine-month salaries rather than use some back door arrangement. The other approach is to peg summer pay to nine-month salaries by percentage. Something like 7-8% per course up to three courses would do it. "

i don't disagree, but in some business disciplines starting salaries are so far off of market it's no longer an issue one can raise with central administration. In finance for example we would like offer someone new something in the $85,000-$90,000 range. Market salaries in that field have been over $100,000 for a few years now, and look to be about $107,000-$110,000 now. It's a lost cause. look at the finance departures list --- the full size of the department (now) has almost turned over twice since 2002. Stick a fork in it, it's done-zo.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"old business confirms what i heard. the sad part of it is that it reflects a common USM practice. cut deals with a college or within a college instead of trying to solve systemic problems. there is a systemic problem with summer salaries that is not limited to COB. the faculty senate some 10 years brought it up, but it goes ignored. USM solves (or tries to solve) COB's problem by cutting a deal with them not available in other colleges. in my COAL discipline i don't have to leave the state and get a better deal at MSU or UM--those places you get paid 1/9 of your 9-months salary for each summer class you teach--it's capped at 3 courses (1/3 of your 9-month salary). i've heard about departments in Ed & Psych losing candidates to MSU or UM precisely because summer salaries are so low. salaries are low in all colleges not just COB, so why not make such a deal available to all colleges? because it's not the USM way. (and i won't get into that wonderful USM narcotic--"summer school profit"). "

Don't necessarilty disagree. But, there are some differences. One third of a new hire in polisci (at $45,000) is $15,000, while one third of a new hire in finance ($100,000) is $33,000. We pay both $9,500 in the summer here (differences are $5,500 and $23,500, respectively).