USM in color - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: May 16, 2005

USM in color

Date: May 16, 2005

Err... more African-American students?

Sorry couldn't help it. Why would the business people care as long as their customer base increases? Money is green.

Date: May 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: JSU grad on Broadway Drive
"I am a JSU grad working in a business on Broadway Drive. When I was in school [early 1990's] USM had about 15% African American students. Now I hear that they have well over 30% from the African American population [moving close to 40% by now]. I have some questions for the USM folks. What is this increase due to? I would not think that the business men in town who support Shelby are happy about this. Are they? "

Good questions to which I can only partially respond. I would hope that the increase in enrollment of all students is the result of more active recruitment across the board, but I don't have any data to back me up. Someone on campus can probably answer that better than I.

As far as what the SFT backers think, I can guess, only because I talk with a few of them from time to time. There is no consensus among them any more than there is in any group. I would say that only a few are actually distressed at any increase in minority enrollment. It appears to me that most are happy to have additional numbers irrespective of the race those numbers represent. I have heard almost no one actually complain about the involvement of minority students in campus life. (The "almost" is due to one total sociopath of my acquaintance who would be much happier if we were all back in 1959, or 1859.) The more rational among the business community recognize the benefit of an educated populace -- again -- irrespective of race. The less enlightened just accept the reality of modern life and acknowledge the futility of resistance.

That said, I question whether the welcome of African American students is genuine or limited. The skeptic in me can't help but wonder how attitudes may change as the percentage of minority students approaches the magic 50%. I also suspect there is a bit of patronization going on, although that may be the wrong word. What I see is a tendency to welcome the income stream, the relatively powerless student in order to pump the numbers, use as an example of social responsibility, whatever. In distinction, I see the marginalization of black folks in authority.

The phrase, "all right in their place" keeps running through my mind.

Date: May 16, 2005

Remember that Anthony Harris was one of the first administrators Shelby fired. I don't know much about Harris, but I do know he had strong ties to the African American community in Hattiesburg. And you don't see the Harlem Boy's Choir in Bennett Auditorium under Shelby's regime, do you? Remember that Shelby can't pronounce Ms. Osceola's name properly.

Date: May 16, 2005

I don't think there is a genuine respect for anybody else, white, black, or purple. Didn't Shelby severly punish or fire Asian lab personnel for speaking their own language to each other?

Date: May 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Third Witch
"I don't think there is a genuine respect for anybody else, white, black, or purple. Didn't Shelby severly punish or fire Asian lab personnel for speaking their own language to each other? "

Well, there was a story going around at the time of the presidential "search" that during his entire career to that point, that Shelby had required all his laboratory personnel to work on the MLK Holiday, but that now that he was "presidential material," that the Thames Group would begin to be able to take this day off. This is apocryphal, but taken in light of his other actions, plausible.

Date: May 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: JSU grad on Broadway Drive
"I am a JSU grad working in a business on Broadway Drive. When I was in school [early 1990's] USM had about 15% African American students. Now I hear that they have well over 30% from the African American population [moving close to 40% by now]. I have some questions for the USM folks. What is this increase due to? I would not think that the business men in town who support Shelby are happy about this. Are they? "

Why should business men or anyone else care what the percentage of African American students at USM is? Presumably they were admitted to the university in much the same fashion as Whites,Asians,Poles,Uzbecks,etc. The great affirmative action gods require that we count people by color instead of merit. We can try to rise above this racist attitude.

Date: May 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Third Witch
"I don't think there is a genuine respect for anybody else, white, black, or purple. Didn't Shelby severly punish or fire Asian lab personnel for speaking their own language to each other? "

I guess you could call firing an extreme form of punishment. They were fired for breaking a rule they didn't know existed: speaking Chinese on the job. I'm not making this one up, it happened.

Date: May 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: JSU grad on Broadway Drive
"I am a JSU grad working in a business on Broadway Drive. When I was in school [early 1990's] USM had about 15% African American students. Now I hear that they have well over 30% from the African American population [moving close to 40% by now]. I have some questions for the USM folks. What is this increase due to? I would not think that the business men in town who support Shelby are happy about this. Are they? "

Being a Hattiesburg Business man, who is branded a SFT supporter here, I'll weigh in on the question. As for my business, only one color matters - green. Students of all races, colors, heritages, ect do business with my company. Who cares.

As for being students. I want to see Southern Miss attract some of the best and brightest students out there. I want this to continue to happen, that is why I am not happy about the situation at USM right now. From what I have witnessed the higher influx of black students at USM began under Fleming. It may have continued under Thames, but it started under Fleming.

Bottom line, I want good students at USM, I could care less about their color.

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
" As for my business, only one color matters - green. . . . . From what I have witnessed the higher influx of black students at USM began under Fleming. It may have continued under Thames, but it started under Fleming."

If you examine the data, I believe you will see that all the growth in recent years has been among black students. White undergraduate enrollment has been stable or falling in recent years. Examine the data even more closely and I believe you will see that it is not related to who is or who is not president.

Date: May 17, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippi Rhoades
"If you examine the data, I believe you will see that all the growth in recent years has been among black students. White undergraduate enrollment has been stable or falling in recent years. Examine the data even more closely and I believe you will see that it is not related to who is or who is not president. "

I'm glad African-American students feel comforatable at USM. Its wasn't always so. This is a good development.

Date: May 17, 2005

The real issue is that black students have decided that an Alcorn degree (or Valley or whatever) is worthless in comparison to a USM degree. However, the better white students are going elsewhere on the whole (yeah, yeah, tell me about presidential scholars, blah blah). The day is coming when the average quality of the black student at USM will be better than the average quality of the white student at USM. Not a bad thing, just a thing. Seeing it now in my classes....

Date: May 17, 2005

LA Woman,

Thanks for the info. These students are pretty good and we were wondering where they were coming "from".

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LA Woman
"The real issue is that black students have decided that an Alcorn degree (or Valley or whatever) is worthless in comparison to a USM degree. However, the better white students are going elsewhere on the whole (yeah, yeah, tell me about presidential scholars, blah blah). The day is coming when the average quality of the black student at USM will be better than the average quality of the white student at USM. Not a bad thing, just a thing. Seeing it now in my classes...."

Many years ago blacks in Mississippi were forced to ride at the rear of the bus (or walk), drink out of a separate water fountain (or not drink at all), sleep in a designated motel (if they could find one), and attend a segregated school (often located miles and miles away). Back then, blacks knew very well that they were being denied the opportunities available to others. But now things have changed. Many blacks no longer want to attend a predominately black college. They perceive an integrated school as better. They attend USM because the student body (and faculty) is not predominately of one color. If USM becomes seen as a black school, good black students will go elsewhere. Good white students have never gone to USM in large numbers, and fewer do now than in the past.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
". . only one color matters - green."

Kudzu, considering that talk about faculty becoming millions, "green" also appears to be USM's new color. It has replaced the black and gold. Consideration was given to using "black and midas gold" as the new colors, but "green" won out - as in the smell on money.Do you think "green" was a motivating force underlying the paving company meeting?

Date: May 18, 2005

What is all this talk about color (race)? In my class room on the USM campus, only one thing counts, performance. I have been here a dozen years or so, and find that my students are generally better than those of a decade ago, regardless of race. Don't play this card on this campus, it won't fly !!!!!

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: astonished
"What is all this talk about color (race)? In my class room on the USM campus, only one thing counts, performance. I have been here a dozen years or so, and find that my students are generally better than those of a decade ago, regardless of race. Don't play this card on this campus, it won't fly !!!!!"

astonished, you know very well what brought on all this talk. It started at the top of this thread by a post from "JSU grad on Broadway Drive." Nobody is playing the race card. There has is nothing racist on this thread. If there were, others would have put a stop to it long before you came along. Don't be so sanctimonious.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: astonished
" I have been here a dozen years or so, and find that my students are generally better than those of a decade ago, regardless of race. Don't play this card on this campus, it won't fly !!!!!"

astonished,

Do not confuse performance with the rampant grade inflation which has occurred during that period. It won't fly. You might want to examine the trend of ACT scores.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: astonished
I have been here a dozen years or so, and find that my students are generally better than those of a decade ago

You believe that better students have been attracted to USM during the past three years? I had no idea that was occurring.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: astonished
" I have been here a dozen years or so, and find that my students are generally better than those of a decade ago, ..."

I have been here more about three decades and in my field, Science and Math, the student’s performance has dropped like a rock. They can't do simple arithmetic without a calculator and you can forget about algebra.

I have documented how test I have given over these years have been watered down in an effort to have more students pass. It hasn't worked. I have evidence from the students themselves that, on average, they don't read or do homework. Some are working 30 to 40 hrs a week and the others know this and just lay back knowing they can say ahead of the working students. Only a few have the drive for an A and all expect at least a B for just showing up most of the time.

For the record, none of this has to do with race. We just have a sick culture.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: astonished
"What is all this talk about color (race)? In my class room on the USM campus, only one thing counts, performance. I have been here a dozen years or so, and find that my students are generally better than those of a decade ago, regardless of race. Don't play this card on this campus, it won't fly !!!!!"

Yes, the only variable that counts in the classroom is performance, but if you are recruiting and planning for a large university, you want to know who you are and are not attracting. For that you look at the age, sex, race, and income status of your incoming students as well as who you are retaining.

Some years ago, Ole Miss was having difficulty attracting African American students. This was made clear by looking at race. They took corrective action and are now doing well with talented black high school students. The only way you can know how you are doing is by looking at numbers. That is why the federal government looks at the numbers.

Over the past twenty years, USM has been very successful at attracting black students in ever increasing numbers. That has not been true of white students, particularly middle class males. This can be seen in the sorry state of the fraternity system at USM. By looking at demographic and geographic variables you can see where you need to focus more attention. No one is playing the race card here.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Old Girl
"
I have been here more about three decades and in my field, Science and Math, the student’s performance has dropped like a rock. They can't do simple arithmetic without a calculator and you can forget about algebra.
I have documented how test I have given over these years have been watered down in an effort to have more students pass. It hasn't worked. I have evidence from the students themselves that, on average, they don't read or do homework. Some are working 30 to 40 hrs a week and the others know this and just lay back knowing they can say ahead of the working students. Only a few have the drive for an A and all expect at least a B for just showing up most of the time.
For the record, none of this has to do with race. We just have a sick culture.
"

Ah yes, we as a society are being dumbed down. I have little doubt in what "Ole Gal" is saying here. And it is not just happening at USM, it is happening everywhere. Resently I had a friend here in Richmond tell me the same thing about the seniors that he teaches here in one of the local public schools. And this school is considered to be one of the best public highschools in the nation.

I think the problem starts in our public schools, we are now making sure that no child is left behind. The problem is that no all students are going to preform at a high level, so our public education system has decided since everyone can't preform at a high rate, we're not going to let those who can do so, we're going to retard their progress by making sure that they don't make the slower students feel bad.

That is public education k-12 as we know it today in the United States.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"I think the problem starts in our public schools, we are now making sure that no child is left behind. The problem is that no all students are going to preform at a high level, so our public education system has decided since everyone can't preform at a high rate, we're not going to let those who can do so, we're going to retard their progress by making sure that they don't make the slower students feel bad."

If this is the problem, what do you suggest as the solution? Classrooms segregated by ability? by socioeconomic status? Other?

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Old Girl
" I have been here more about three decades and in my field, Science and Math, the student’s performance has dropped like a rock. They can't do simple arithmetic without a calculator and you can forget about algebra."

If USM insists on pursuing its rush toward a 20,000 student population, the problem you describe is going to be exacerbated. There are not enough prospective students to go around. A goal of 20,000 is a disservice to the student and to the state.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
"If this is the problem, what do you suggest as the solution? Classrooms segregated by ability? by socioeconomic status? Other?"

I don't claim to be an expert in this field, but it appears to me one step that needs to be taken, is to insure that students learn the information required before being moved to the next grade. I also believe in accelerated classes for students who learn faster than other students. Those students should not be held back simply because other students need more time

I understand that we will have some social-psycologist say that you are harming the self-esteem of the students who do not learn as quickly. But, I argue that it not nearly as harmful for a child to be held back until they aquire the skills to move on, as it is to move a child up without the skills needed. At the end we are moving yet another generation of students out into the working world who do not have the skills to be successful, and that is the greatest injustice we as a society can do to our young people.

Hold them back while they are young, do no pass them on and hold them back for the rest of their lives.

This will probably not be a popular opinion on here, but that's the way I feel.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
" I don't claim to be an expert in this field, but it appears to me one step that needs to be taken, is to insure that students learn the information required before being moved to the next grade. I also believe in accelerated classes for students who learn faster than other students. Those students should not be held back simply because other students need more time I understand that we will have some social-psycologist say that you are harming the self-esteem of the students who do not learn as quickly. But, I argue that it not nearly as harmful for a child to be held back until they aquire the skills to move on, as it is to move a child up without the skills needed. At the end we are moving yet another generation of students out into the working world who do not have the skills to be successful, and that is the greatest injustice we as a society can do to our young people. Hold them back while they are young, do no pass them on and hold them back for the rest of their lives. This will probably not be a popular opinion on here, but that's the way I feel."

How do you feel about simply tightening USM's admission standards, thereby admitting only students who have a high likelihood of success?

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
"How do you feel about simply tightening USM's admission standards, thereby admitting only students who have a high likelihood of success? "

That would be a fine fix for USM's problems, if USM indeed has problems of that nature. But, I was thinking more along the lines of society in general, not just a little box that concerns me and a few others.

I want young people in MS to be successful, not just the ones that are able to go to college.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"I was thinking more along the lines of society in general, not just a little box that concerns me and a few others. I want young people in MS to be successful, not just the ones that are able to go to college."

But USM is our little "corner of the world." We could at least take care of that. There are others responsible for elementary and secondary education. It would be nice if we knew how to solve their problems, but we don't. So how do you feel about USM accepting only students whose record suggests they are of college calibre? Keep in mind that such an admission philosophy would not be consistent with USM's plan to grow to 20,000.

Date: May 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
"But USM is our little "corner of the world." We could at least take care of that. There are others responsible for elementary and secondary education. It would be nice if we knew how to solve their problems, but we don't. So how do you feel about USM accepting only students whose record suggests they are of college calibre? Keep in mind that such an admission philosophy would not be consistent with USM's plan to grow to 20,000. "

Seeker, there is one more thing I neglected to mention. College admssions criteria in Mississippi were determined by the Ayres case. They are the same at all of our eight public universities. This leaves at least one other option: stop the grade inflation that exists at USM. That is within the conrol of the faculty, not the courts. How do you feel about that option?

Date: May 18, 2005

Growing enrollment to 20k quality students is a very obtainable goal. I don't think that is necessarily obtainable in the time frame in which Thames wants to see it happen. With the population trends shifting in MS, towards the south, and the Hattiseburg-Gulf Coast area, that is an obtainable number.

I think it should probably be grown slower than what is proposed. But, that is just me. I have never, and will never lobby for an open admissions policy at USM, in fact I would like to see it tightened.

You have no reason to take issue with me.