should I stay or should I go? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: May 9, 2005

should I stay or should I go?

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: joe strummer
" I just completed my first year in a tenure track appointment at USM and in the brouhaha attendant upon last Fall's SACS probation, and the general craziness here, I contacted the department chair at a small college in my home state--where I first went to college years ago--and asked if he forsaw any openings in the department there. One thing led to another and I just came back from a campus interview there, and was assured, unofficially, that I would be offered the job, although I haven't heard yet offcially. It's a 4/4 job mainly teaching freshmen in a little bitty place about as far from a genuine research library as USM, and with a slightly lower salary. I'd much prefer to stay at Southern, then, for all the obvious reasons--better teaching assignments, more time for research, a more stimulating intellectual atmosphere--but I'm not sure how much more Thamesian craziness my partner and I can endure. It's real toss up. I've got colleagues here I really respect and like and my impression of the established faculty generally has been that, overall, they've been absolutely heroic in a really bad situation. I'd feel I was abandoning them, sort of, if I left, but . .. well you get the idea With all that as backstory, my questions are: does anybody really think that the IHL is going to reaffirm Thames for a second term? If it does, what will happen? And finally, should I stay or should I go? "

It would surprise me, given the complexities of the matter, if anybody on the message board would venture to give you a "Yes-No" opinion on your "Stay-Go" question. I faced the same question several times in my academic career, and all but one of those times I consulted with my major professor at the school where I received my doctorate. The one time when I didn't seek such knowledgable advice is the time I moved to USM. I received plenty of advice after the fact, but it was too late then.

Date: May 9, 2005

What's the first thing the pit of your stomach says when you wake up in the morning?

Disclaimer: I'm not really qualified to give you academic career advice, but if I were your Mom, I'd say go. You can always come back. Teach and spend your summers writing.

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"You can always come back."

LVN, are you sure about that?

Date: May 9, 2005

Is there any reason to think you will be less marketable next year? Any reason to believe that additional options won't open next year? Sounds like you want a comprehensive university and not a small teaching school.

Stay, publish, keep your head down. Don't jump to a position that you know you won't be happy in from one that, at your level, is still tolerable. Of course, if you're already finding it intolerable, that's a different story.

No, I don't think the IHL will renew his contract. You may have the luxury of waiting him out.

Date: May 9, 2005

I probably spoke too soon. Without knowing the age and the academic discipline, I guess we can't give good advice. If this is a younger person, Contrarian has a point about waiting it out, if you can stand it. Even the great and powerful Oz isn't immortal.

Date: May 9, 2005

There is a concept called a "quality of Life". If you're not in one of the more embattled portions of USM, perhaps you can handle staying. If not, there are other places, other environments far less toxic than the one you are currently in.

Date: May 9, 2005

I was in your shoes at USM, and I left, simply because even though my other position was geographically inferior to USM, the environment was infinitely better. At USM, I was treated as an underling, as opposed to a colleague. My current position is about as close to ideal as possible, although they under-emphasize research enought to limit horizontal mobility.

If you feel that that the geographic quality of life at the home state is better, and the school won't deal with all the craziness, then go for it.

Some of the best researchers still work at so called "teaching" institutions.

BTW, your USM colleagues will probably not hold it against you, rather, they should be envious.

Caveat: having taught at both state supported universities and private universities, I can tell you that for me, at least, it was much, much, much less stressful at the private university. By far. No (or at least much less) fear of budget cuts, limiting the property tax to 1% of the appraised value (which would endanger the school budget), and so on.

Date: May 9, 2005

Besides....many of your usm colleagues are looking to leave too

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Contrarian
"Is there any reason to think you will be less marketable next year? Any reason to believe that additional options won't open next year? Sounds like you want a comprehensive university and not a small teaching school.
Stay, publish, keep your head down. Don't jump to a position that you know you won't be happy in from one that, at your level, is still tolerable. Of course, if you're already finding it intolerable, that's a different story."

In understand the issues here--I had lots of survivor's guilt when I left, and I still feel like I want to fight the good fight. I miss lots of USMers. I think the question is, how much of the insanity can you take and still feel sane? I didn't get much research done last year. All my emotional energy went to protests and strategies. My home life suffered. It has taken the entire year away to start to feel better and to regain some sense of normal life.

But, you may be a tougher, hardier soul than I am. You may be able function just fine in the midst of this. On the other hand, you may find that a 4/4 load in a sane, functioning institution, where you're able to concentrate (because you don't have to look out for a weekly crisis), will mean that you get lots of research done. Peace and quiet and safety from evil are not overrated, in my opinion.

Date: May 9, 2005

Since USM is a state school dependent upon state appropriations, some consideration of the economic prospects of Mississippi are worth considering.

The state's economy, as described in the most recent Forbes Magazine is a 'basket case'.

The department of Agriculture's Economic Research Service designates "persistant poverty" counties as those in which 20 percent or more of the population lived below the poverty line for the last 40 years.

Follow this link to view a map and notice that the majority of Mississippi's counties are thus designated.

You need to think hard about committing to a state that has neither the interest nor the means to support its Universities.

You need to think hard about committing to a state where education is held in such low esteem that the governor responds to a $50 million dollar donation for the public schools are a "bribe." [I'm referring to Netscape co-founder Barksdale's offer]

You need to think hard about committing to a state where the public is so easily aroused by talk of 'lazy' professors.

You need to think hard about committing to a state whose recent history is so far out of the mainstream, even for the South, that even folks in Arkansas say "thank heavens for Mississippi."

Mississippi is at the very bottom in just about every measure of well-being for a reason. You need to think about that.

Date: May 9, 2005

Contrarian,

Can you explain why you think the contract won't be renewed? I know that it SHOULDN'T be renewed, but are there concrete grounds for thinking that this IHL WON'T renew it? I would be interested to know how many regular posters think it will, or won't, be renewed. My gut tells me that it won't be, because I can't imagine the IHL wanting to put up with any more of the constant stupidity that trails behind Shelby like dust trailed behind Charles Shultz's Pigpen. However, my gut may be hopelessly naive.

Date: May 9, 2005

As an astute admirer of USM SYMP, I too look for answers, fearful that the answers have become as corrupt as the questions. I adore this Message Board because, for the first time in my academic life, I hear a conversation that at least addresses my collective fears.

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: USM Sympathizer
"Can you explain why you think the contract won't be renewed? "

Karma? Because evil and chaos cannot be sustained indefinately?

Because, with a couple exceptions, board members are neither as stupid nor as calculating as they are often made out to be. Because Shelby Thames is running out of both scapegoats and allies. Because Commissioner Crofts has brought an external voice of academic credibility. Because the new governance model is sound. Because to date, despite all their criticism of Shelby Thames, the faculty has worked within the system and that could change if the IHL doesn't act. Because there's not much more fun to be had by an unhealthy, despised 70-year old man. Because cream always rises. Because my gut agrees with yours.

Because hope springs eternal?

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Miles Long
" At USM, I was treated as an underling, as opposed to a colleague."

Let me clarify: I was treated as an underling by my chair, (interim) dean, asst provost. Not by fellow fac in my dept. They rock.

Date: May 9, 2005

Hello Joe S. - Loved your music.

What should you do? I was socialized a long time ago on this: Namely, 1) you are first and foremost loyal to what is rewarded in your profession; and 2) Do not ever expect that the service and effort you give your current institution will have any value to your hoped-for next institution. Your career moves and career decisions should be driven by this. If your profession values research productivity (in Shelby-speak, scholarship), then you must value it as well, or be doomed to staying put, where ever you are.

Academia is filled with professors who stopped doing research after they were tenured, and now are "stuck". Being stuck is great, if you have a good and supportive environment. BUT, along comes a SFT, and now they must scramble, or grow increasingly bitter at their lack of prospects. As long as you follow 1) and 2), you will always have an out.

If you want my advise - from your profession's standpoint, where do you think you will be most productive such that those professional rewards will come? Even if USM is struggling now, SFT can not stay forever. If, professionally, it is more important to stay here and continue to build your professional stature, then stay here. To me, the administration is an annoyance that I can not let get in my way professionally. Regardless of my personal displeasure with the SFT administration, I am here as a professional, and will work hard to make this part of my career pay off professionally. Making a rash decision that may come back to haunt you is no way to succeed: I have seen too many faculty "jump ship" to lesser institutions, and now have paid a painful price in their profession.

Just my .04 cents

Count

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Contrarian
" Karma? Because evil and chaos cannot be sustained indefinately? Because, with a couple exceptions, board members are neither as stupid nor as calculating as they are often made out to be. Because Shelby Thames is running out of both scapegoats and allies. Because Commissioner Crofts has brought an external voice of academic credibility. Because the new governance model is sound. Because to date, despite all their criticism of Shelby Thames, the faculty has worked within the system and that could change if the IHL doesn't act. Because there's not much more fun to be had by an unhealthy, despised 70-year old man. Because cream always rises. Because my gut agrees with yours. Because hope springs eternal?"

Contrarian--

Lots of good reasons there. Not as concrete as the Sympathizer was looking for, I expect, but encouraging nonetheless. In the words of Tim Hardin, "Still I look to find a reason to believe."

Date: May 9, 2005

JS,

You might also want to talk to colleagues in your college. I understand there may be quite a few "hits" at tenure and promotion this year. I am beginning to hear of folks turned down only at decanal and provost level, all other recommendations as overwhelmingly positive. Pay attention and then try tothink how you might fare in a very harsh climate going up for tenure and promotion.

What I am hearing is a few stories, I don't have hard data. But I advise you to find out what's going on in your college.

Perhaps you could negotiate a 1-year leave of absence to go "home" and put off the decision for a year. That has happened here before.

Amy Young

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"JS,

You might also want to talk to colleagues in your college. I understand there may be quite a few "hits" at tenure and promotion this year. I am beginning to hear of folks turned down only at decanal and provost level, all other recommendations as overwhelmingly positive. Pay attention and then try tothink how you might fare in a very harsh climate going up for tenure and promotion.

What I am hearing is a few stories, I don't have hard data. But I advise you to find out what's going on in your college.

Perhaps you could negotiate a 1-year leave of absence to go "home" and put off the decision for a year. That has happened here before.

Amy Young"

Whoa. If anyone finds out this is true, let us know. What better way to drive off higher paid salaried folks--or perhaps to make what remains of the money after it was squandered go further.

Date: May 9, 2005

Somebody good with numbers add up these figures:

Angie's salary + Mark D's salary + J Hanbury's salary + Lisa's salary = how many teaching salaries? Remember -- none of them have been replaced. Where's the $$?

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"JS, You might also want to talk to colleagues in your college. I understand there may be quite a few "hits" at tenure and promotion this year. I am beginning to hear of folks turned down only at decanal and provost level, all other recommendations as overwhelmingly positive. Pay attention and then try tothink how you might fare in a very harsh climate going up for tenure and promotion. "

Amy, JS didn't say anything about being concerned about tenure or promotion. That would put an entirely different slant on things.

Date: May 9, 2005

I cannot speak for your own personal situation, but i am also an un-tenured Prof at USM (although with a few more years in the trenches than you). I too am dismayed at the Thames administration but personally think he has a good shot at being reappointed. I have spoken at length with some of my senior colleagues and have told them that should that look likely i WILL be leaving (in fact i mailed a job application off this morning).

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: TT Prof
"I have spoken at length with some of my senior colleagues and have told them that should that look likely i WILL be leaving (in fact i mailed a job application off this morning)."

Well, at least you are doing it the way it's done in the big leagues of academe. TT, your MO sure beats the style we've seen used here: locking them out of their offices, etc.

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Whoa also
"Amy, JS didn't say anything about being concerned about tenure or promotion. That would put an entirely different slant on things. "

JS said he/she was in first year. Everyone at that point in their career should be concerned about promotion and tenure.

I expect that if the IHL decides to just go year by year with Thames, more and more of us will leave, only to be replaced with instructors and other non-tenure track.

It might be that the stories I am hearing about turndowns for tenure and promotion are part of the Thames strategy to convince the board how tough he has to be on us lazy, liberal professors - which explains any complaining and negative reviews.

Amy Young

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: Amy Young
" JS said he/she was in first year. Everyone at that point in their career should be concerned about promotion and tenure. "

"

That's true. But I thought JS was addressing issues more directly pertaining to university integrity rather than tenure and promotion.

Date: May 9, 2005

The increase in denials from tenure and promotion should be of concern to an untenured faculty member. It signals SFT's plans to cut costs and move to a heavy instructor lead faculty that follows a mass production business model, like many of the for-profit universities. Keep in mind, most for-profit universities are also relatively high cost. SFT believes that we can make a mint by providing competing products at lower prices.

I also don't share the optimism of others on the board. In fact I think the probability of SFT being named "President for Life" is higher than his not being reappointed.

I am also an untenured faculty member, and have struggled with the same thoughts. My conclusion... I will be in the market this fall.

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Whoa also
"That's true. But I thought JS was addressing issues more directly pertaining to university integrity rather than tenure and promotion. "

Unfortunately, integrity at this university is directly tied to tenure and promotion. Why else were we concerned about A. Dvorak as VP who had never been tenured at a 4-year institution sitting in judgement over tenure and promotion decisions?

As the chapter president of AAUP, I get calls from faculty who are dealing with the rejection letters. I think decisions about staying here should consider the tenure and promotion situation.

I still hope things change.

Amy Young

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
" Unfortunately, integrity at this university is directly tied to tenure and promotion. "

If integrity is lacking at the university, its faculty has more to be concened about than just the important matters of tenure and promotion. One must have to look over their shoulder at every step.

Date: May 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Not Consumed by Wishfull thinking
"... It signals SFT's plans to cut costs and move to a heavy instructor lead faculty that follows a mass production business model, like many of the for-profit universities. Keep in mind, most for-profit universities are also relatively high cost. SFT believes that we can make a mint by providing competing products at lower prices. ...."

"Not Consumed", I have heard that at least one dean has stated "instructors teach, professors do research". It appears you are correct in SFT's model of how to run a cost effective university. To h*ll with teaching, students only want grades anyway. To h*ll with research, just bring in the funding.

Date: May 9, 2005

JS--

I am also in my first year at USM and am faced with an astonishingly similar dilemma--so similar, in fact, that a colleague mistook me as the author of your post. My situation is complicated slightly by the fact that 1) the pay at the smaller university is significantly better than that at USM and 2) I would teach only junior and senior-level courses. I was approached by the chair of the department after the departure of a prof there and, in other circumstances, would never consider the job a real option. Things being as they are, however, I find myself sometimes fantasizing, usually during that too-brief lull between weekly outrages, about this quiet little corner of academe where I could work (albeit at a somewhat slower pace) and teach without having students ask me things like "Do you know when the liberal arts program will be abolished?" or "Do you think my degree will be worthless?" (questions I have actually been asked this semester--tough ones for a first-year prof, no?); where the "students" are still routinely, perhaps unfashionably, referred to as such; where most consider it a bit gauche to obsess too conspicuously about the number of students enrolled rather than the quality of the education they are receiving; where, in fact, I wouldn't feel the need to read a message board like this one nightly for fear of missing something that might negatively impact my immediate professional future.

I've debated the "quality of life" question with myself. I have pondered the effects and the mental strain of a 4/4 load. I have considered the absence of research support and of the wonderful colleagues I have met here (some of whom have already made the decision to flee). After all my soul-searching, for me, it comes down to this: the values of this institution, as they are both articulated and demonstrated by the current administration, are not the values of a university with which I want to be associated, whether or not that university is technically a "research institution." If I were to publish a book or an article at the small university, it would not bring me closer to tenure, though it would still give me the same personal and intellectual satisfaction it has always done--which is, I confess, the reason I got into this business in the first place. I might not have colleagues there who are current in their fields or who have an immediate appreciation for--or even interest in--the work. On the other hand, I would never be asked how that research might generate dollars.

Like you, I have sought advice from almost everyone I know, colleagues, mentors, friends, family, and have had many, many sleepless nights weighing pros and cons, parsing values, and re-evaluating professional goals. I am no closer to a decision than I was months ago. I came to USM not because I had no other choice but because I was excited about the possibilities of a small research school and enamored with an active and warmly collegial faculty. I doubt very much that you and I are the only new faculty asking ourselves these questions. As a longtime lurker (though never until now a poster) on this board, I appreciate your coming forth. It's comforting to know that someone else is wrestling with this issue.