the kind of USM its alums want - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Apr 27, 2005

the kind of USM its alums want

Date: Apr 27, 2005

And we care about what is said on Eagle Talk....why?

I think they have demonstrated over and over again that their board attracts the dregs of USM Alums...thank goodness I know enough *other* USM Alums (inc. myself!) to know that ET does not even begin to represent the whole lot of us.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: philo
". . . . the kind of USM its students and alumni (incl Thames) want is much different than the kind of USM its faculty want."

philo - Your analysis is very astute. I'm sure it applies to many alumni and students, but not nearly to all of them. As I read your statment it occurred to me that the institution wanted by the inmates at Parchman probably differs from the warden's vision of what that institution should be like.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

i bet they'll really be mad when they read the news about the new graduate fellowships and graduate assistantship increases for the graduate program in creative writing.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

I don't believe every student/alumni believes the way philo explains either, but if you guys believe philo is completely off base you're pissing against the wind.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Students and Alums are, indeed, getting precisely the Univeristy they want. Faculty should not be surprised by the animus directed towards them. I raised this very issue back in February at this thread:

Students & Alums are getting the USM they deserve

Here is a portion of what I said then:

"Many students seem to resent faculty, particularly faculty who hold first-rate credentials, and they are absolutely unconcerned with the quality of the library. Alumni seem completely unconnected to the place. For all the talk of athletics, I've never been to a sold out football or basketball game.
One reason may be that few of our students go on to leading professional/graduate programs or pursue business careers out-of-state, and therefore, are much less concerned with the quality and reputation of their credentials."

Date: Apr 27, 2005

I think that the liberal issue is over blown to some degree. While it is true that statements and positions by faculty that are radically different from the mainstream do not go well with the average taxpayer, there is more behind this issue. The goofiness of some liberal faculty attracts attention and the incidents are more memorable. If liberal versus conservative were the issue, these yoyos would not be fighting the whole faculty. The College of Business and perhaps Science would be lavished with verbal support and praise compared to others. The last I looked, most colleges have been treated like crap regardless of their views. While Liberal Arts has been more outspoken than other colleges, I think it reflects that they had a collection of faculty who had the most prestigious reputations and more opportunities. Liberal Arts also may have more faculty who are idealist and less pragmatic, a trait valuable in keeping a university on track. The tendency to lump faculty together as lazy and incompetent reflects an anti-intellectual bent that exists in most people, but more so in this region. It is the dark side of the Scotch Irish heritage that makes folks from these regions disproportionately successful in the military. One can see this more clearly by reading the works of the historian Victor David Hanson, and the economist Thomas Sowell.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

My biggest personal disappointment over the last year (well, two, going back to the reorganization by fiat) has been the response of the town and the alums. Many of us have lived here a long time. We've been PTA officers. We've been church deacons. We've worked for the United Way. Our spouses have worked in positions outside the university. Our children have spent time in each other's homes. People in Hattiesburg/OakGrove know us. They know our character. The same is true of the alums who sat in our classes and saw how much we love teaching, value the university, and dedicate ourselves to research. But when push came to shove, almost all believed the administration (whose character many of them also know) rather than the good public citizens of the faculty and the staff. Even those who recognized the truth have been strangely quiet (with the exception of 2 or 3). Perhaps it is the old plantation mentality, live and at work in Hattiesburg. But whatever it is, it is disappointing to know that all of one's life as a good citizen of the community counted for nothing in the end.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Old timer
" But whatever it is, it is disappointing to know that all of one's life as a good citizen of the community counted for nothing in the end. "

Oldtimer describes profound and moving personal disappointment that is widely shared among USM faculy. It is not surprising, however. Indigenous people always resent the missionaries that live and preach among them.

I used to think that Mississippi was just like the rest of America, but more so. I don't hold that view anymore. It so isolated from the mainstream of educated, professional, and prosperous America. Look what passes for "local business leadership" in Hattiesburg--penny-ante contractors who largely live off of government contracts (paving contractors, for example), two-bit real estate interests, and the reactionary medical establishment.

The governor and the state legislature dismantle the public schools and you hear nary a peep. Lamar county schools are bursting at the seams, yet the community refuses to tax itself to provide for the education of its children The univeristies in Mississippi are rooted in the same barren soil. Thank God I'm not raising any children in that environment. What a lifelong handicap.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Old timer
"My biggest personal disappointment over the last year (well, two, going back to the reorganization by fiat) has been the response of the town and the alums. Many of us have lived here a long time. We've been PTA officers. We've been church deacons. We've worked for the United Way. Our spouses have worked in positions outside the university. Our children have spent time in each other's homes. People in Hattiesburg/OakGrove know us. They know our character. The same is true of the alums who sat in our classes and saw how much we love teaching, value the university, and dedicate ourselves to research. But when push came to shove, almost all believed the administration (whose character many of them also know) rather than the good public citizens of the faculty and the staff. Even those who recognized the truth have been strangely quiet (with the exception of 2 or 3). Perhaps it is the old plantation mentality, live and at work in Hattiesburg. But whatever it is, it is disappointing to know that all of one's life as a good citizen of the community counted for nothing in the end. "

I can understand your feelings here. What has happned is that a great number of faculty like yourself and those you describe are being lumped in with a few (very vocal) faculty members that do not share your character. There is a small number of faculty on campus that have dragged everyone down to their level, because they could not stand on their own merits.

Not every alum has been fooled by either side. The downfall of the faculty has been that you have allowed your spokes people to be the most controvertial, most confrontational members do your speaking. Do you guys honestly think that all those letters to the Hattiesburg American helped your cause. The majority did just the opposite. Despite what you think, they painted you in a very negative light to the community.

What has happed with your friends in the community is this. They think to themselves. Old Timer sure is a great guy/gal, but they sure work with some nutjobs.

The public will see your organization as a mirror of your figurehead.

And it looks like they like Thames more than they like Noel Polk, Amy Young, Bill Scarabrough, Glamser and Stringer.

You don't have to like it, but that's reality.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

"And it looks like they like Thames more than they like Noel Polk, Amy Young, Bill Scarabrough, Glamser and Stringer."

You are wrong, K.K. I personally know these people, and I know their character. I know the kind of public citizen of the community (and even the church) each has been.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"

I can understand your feelings here. What has happned is that a great number of faculty like yourself and those you describe are being lumped in with a few (very vocal) faculty members that do not share your character.

KK--Please name the vocal faculty members of doubtful character. Amy Young? Ray Folse? Anne Wallace? Noel Polk? Gary Stringer? Joe Parker? All of these folks were (and most still are!) productive members of Hattiesburg's community. Just who the heck are you talking about here?

There is a small number of faculty on campus that have dragged everyone down to their level, because they could not stand on their own merits.

Which faculty members cannot stand on their own merits???

Not every alum has been fooled by either side. The downfall of the faculty has been that you have allowed your spokes people to be the most controvertial, most confrontational members do your speaking.

Who are these controversial and confrontational faculty members? All I see are people taking up for themselves and their professions. And what "downfall of the faculty" are you talking about? If anything, I see a "downfall" of the Thames administration, with more turnover at the top than ever before (see Lisa Mader's recent departure, the loss of Jack Hanbury and the Dvoraks, et. al.).

Do you guys honestly think that all those letters to the Hattiesburg American helped your cause. The majority did just the opposite. Despite what you think, they painted you in a very negative light to the community.

So, faculty members are supposed to just "lie there and take it?" Faculty members don't have any First Amendment rights now? They are just as entitled to their public opinions as anyone else (including ole Toy, SFT, and others). Why didn't alums react negatively when Toy said he wanted to get on top of a building and start shooting? Why didn't alums react negatively when SFT taunted Frank and Gary with his "are they not red-blooded American males" BS and imply that there would be criminal charges filed (which NEVER happened!!)?

The public will see your organization as a mirror of your figurehead.

What organization are you referring to? AAUP? The Faculty Senate? The 432 faculty members who voted "no confidence" in Thames last year? So, they are all nutjobs?

And it looks like they like Thames more than they like Noel Polk, Amy Young, Bill Scarabrough, Glamser and Stringer.

Too bad one man does not a university make.

You don't have to like it, but that's reality."

No, I think these alums have formed their own alternate reality, where good deeds are punished, smart people who work hard are threatened with violence, and good ole boys like Toy who make inane threats against his alma mater are held up as heroes. Give me a freakin' break.

NO QUARTER!

Truth

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Thanks, Truth. You said it much better than I.

Not on faculty but I still say with you NO QUARTER!

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
" I can understand your feelings here. What has happned is that a great number of faculty like yourself and those you describe are being lumped in with a few (very vocal) faculty members that do not share your character. There is a small number of faculty on campus that have dragged everyone down to their level, because they could not stand on their own merits. Not every alum has been fooled by either side. The downfall of the faculty has been that you have allowed your spokes people to be the most controvertial, most confrontational members do your speaking. Do you guys honestly think that all those letters to the Hattiesburg American helped your cause. The majority did just the opposite. Despite what you think, they painted you in a very negative light to the community. What has happed with your friends in the community is this. They think to themselves. Old Timer sure is a great guy/gal, but they sure work with some nutjobs. The public will see your organization as a mirror of your figurehead. And it looks like they like Thames more than they like Noel Polk, Amy Young, Bill Scarabrough, Glamser and Stringer. You don't have to like it, but that's reality."

KK, it appears to me that you don't like the faculty to speak out. You must not like to think about difficult issues. I know members of the community who do not like to question authority and the faculty doing that really undermines their worldview. I noticed that you haven't rebutted the messages of the faculty, only their speaking out.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"

I can understand your feelings here. What has happned is that a great number of faculty like yourself and those you describe are being lumped in with a few (very vocal) faculty members that do not share your character. There is a small number of faculty on campus that have dragged everyone down to their level, because they could not stand on their own merits.
"

Damned right Kudzu. Them's faculty is just like them outside agitators that came down here in the sixties with all them crazy, dangerous ideas like lettin' everyone vote.

[mandatory sarcasim warning label: please note this is sarcasm]

Date: Apr 27, 2005

And it looks like they like Thames more than they like Noel Polk, Amy Young, Bill Scarabrough, Glamser and Stringer.

Kudzu King,

Your point is irrelevant, a preponderance of all letters to the editor are written by folks that someone is going to call a nut case. There are many tribes in the community that are ethnocentric and do not care for other ethnocentric groups. Aside from that, I have a neighbor who is a successful realtor who felt comfortable attending the famous meeting at the Elks Road Club. I have steered prospects to him when we hired new faculty and he has made commissions off of those sales. He also did a good job and the new faculty were happy with the situation. Now, he will never get to list my house if I sell, and he will never get to show houses to prospective faculty if I can prevent it. Now I think that this realtor is a real nut case. Nowhere in the book on selling does it recommend that the seller first go wee wee all over the customer before the process even begins.

There is a religious fervor to the attitudes of the public who are battling the faculty that has been latent for a long time and SFT provided the spark to ignite it. It does not rise to the level of the lynch mob mentality certainly, but it nonetheless has a level of energy that should concern both the university faculty and the people involved. I suggest that members of the community might take some time to read the good book that is figures highly in their society. I have read it cover to cover because of classes at the college I attended. While I favor the Old Testament, the modern church stresses the new. If there is a part in the New Testament that calls for the community to rise up against university faculty, I missed it. I can assure you that I would have pointed it out in my religion class had I found it.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Kudzu King,

Your post is correct. The situation is leading to a "double alienation" of the faculty. One becomes alienated from a University that is now a mess in many ways. The reaction of many of the older faculty is interesting. They are starting to act like assistant professors. The typical assistant professor comes here to build a reputation and move on. This leads to an intense focus on building an excellent teaching portfolio and doing good research. It is really interesting to watch 50 and 60 somethings withdraw from committees, attendance at University events, and the life of the University in general to focus on teaching an scholarship. Both the students and the institution will benefit from this. The alums, IHL, and the politicians may not care about research but EVERYONE evaluating USM does.

This also means an alienation from the community. If in the end if your "friends" cannot understand that you do not "choose" your colleagues, then you just throw in the towel. The stituation is interesting in another way. Since I am to the right of conservative politically I always liked USM because it was less liberal, on average, than most Division I public institutions. I always have to laugh sadly to hear USM portrayed as some sort of "very" liberal University. Whatever. I gave up a few months ago after one too many comments about "those professors." Fortunately, I found I'm not missing much.

Best Regards,

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"

No, I think these alums have formed their own alternate reality, where good deeds are punished, smart people who work hard are threatened with violence, and good ole boys like Toy who make inane threats against his alma mater are held up as heroes. Give me a freakin' break.

NO QUARTER!

Truth"

You guys asked why you don't have any support from the community, I told you. Seems to me you just didn't like the message. Is it right, or wrong, you decide. Whatever you decide won't change the fact that you have no support from the community, college board, state legislature, you have no support from anyone that has the power to do anything. So have fun with you message board and letters to the editor, because what has is gained you - nothing.

If you want to put yourself in a better situation, I suggest you consider a new plan of attack. But, you won't. You keep doing what you have been doing, and the result will continue to be the same. You ending up on the short end of the stick, time and again.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"You don't have to like it, but that's reality."

Kudzu - I agree with much of what you have said. But now that you've presented your view of reality, let me share my version with you.

The quality of the local university is probably of little concern to many Hattiesburg businesspersons as long as the students and faculty members spend, spend, spend. The larger the university, the greater the spending. Numbers not academic quality, governs spending. The current administration says grow, grow, grow. Many businesspersons interpret that at spend, spend, spend. A student body of 20,000 means more spending than a student body of 16,000. No wonder there is so much resentment of our faculty among some of the Hattiesburg business leaders. The faculty is going for quality. The administration? Size.

The affluent Hattiesburg businesspersons, for the most part, send their children to Ole Miss, Millsaps, or to an out-out-state university. The reputation of USM as such is less important to that type of businessperson than it is to the hard working laborers who bust their butts to scrape up enough money to send their kids to USM. Their loyalty to USM as a viable academic institution is just not there. No wonder there is so little concern for the academic quality of USM among some of the affluent Hattiesburg business leaders.

Given all of this, I believe I understand why so many of the local affluent businesspersons have taken the side of might rather than the side of right in the USM debacle.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Hey Kudzu:
Bill Scarborough is one of those professors who has been publically critical of Thames. I think he can stand on his own. Note this from the Mississippi Historical Society:

"Mississippi Historical Society Awards Prizes, Elects Officers

William K. Scarborough, professor of history at the University of Southern Mississippi, was awarded the society's highest honor, the B.L.C. Wailes Award for national distinction in the field of history. Scarborough's publications include the award-winning The Overseer: Plantation Management in the Old South and Masters of the Big House: Elite Slaveholders of the Mid-Nineteenth Century South. A former Mississippi Historical Society president, Scarborough is the 1993 winner of the society's Willie D. Halsell Prize and was awarded the Richard Wright Literary Excellence Award from the Natchez Literary and Cinema Celebration in 2004. From 1996 to 1998, Scarborough was the Charles W. Moorman Distinguished Alumni Professor in the Humanities at USM.

Here's the link:

William Scarborough wins Mississippi Historical Society's Highest Honor

Of course, Gary Stringer was snapped up by Texas A&M before the ink was dry on the settlement Thames was forced to sign. But that's a fourth-tier school whose faculty 'can't stand on their own.' Right, Kudzu King?

Date: Apr 27, 2005

I think that a point that is being missed by your side of the arguement (I have no side, I think both are responsible in part) is that you have failed to effectively communicate your side of the issues, despite the fact that you have Janet Braswell and Reuben Mees on speed dial on your cell phones.

In instances where you've had some effective communication, you have it followed up with a letter to the editor, that makes the average person in H'burg, think wow there sure are some nuts over at the College.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

It does not matter any more who is at fault. The battle will continue. The faculty will win in the end because they are at the point where not much more can be done to them. The lawsuits will soon hit the courts and, if the plaintiff lawyers have any skill, the Board and the Bard members will find themselves being deposed over and over. The Board members have become involved enough that they now are fair game for inclusion, at least to be deposed to find out what they know. USM while being 1/3 of the major Mississippi universities and about 12% of the total universities will occupy over half of the Board and Board members time. That is a disequilibrium that cannot last. After it is over, the remaining faculty will harbor a grudge against the community and the gown and town relations will remain sour for a long time. No one wins and the citizens of Mississippi have suffered another of those all to common self inflicted wounds.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Cossack
"It does not matter any more who is at fault. The battle will continue. The faculty will win in the end because they are at the point where not much more can be done to them. The lawsuits will soon hit the courts and, if the plaintiff lawyers have any skill, the Board and the Bard members will find themselves being deposed over and over. The Board members have become involved enough that they now are fair game for inclusion, at least to be deposed to find out what they know. USM while being 1/3 of the major Mississippi universities and about 12% of the total universities will occupy over half of the Board and Board members time. That is a disequilibrium that cannot last. After it is over, the remaining faculty will harbor a grudge against the community and the gown and town relations will remain sour for a long time. No one wins and the citizens of Mississippi have suffered another of those all to common self inflicted wounds."

Cossack, you are right on the money here. This is what makes me saddest for my home state...how its citizens suffer because of the political shenanigans of its "leaders."

And how do these alums and community members think that a university is supposed to run with no faculty? That's what I've never understood...at least 432 of those faculty members believe that USM needs new leadership. Can 432 faculty (over 80%) be wrong?

I suppose they will have to start hiring USM alums to teach, if you take this theory out to its full conclusion. No one else is smart enough, works hard enough, and has the "love for USM" enough than those USM alums on Eagle Talk. I'd like to put them in the classroom, and on committees, and in the library/lab doing research, and counseling students, and dealing with dysfunctional administrators, and trying to get USM off SACS probation (and the list goes on....) and see how long they would last.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"I think that a point that is being missed by your side of the arguement (I have no side, I think both are responsible in part) is that you have failed to effectively communicate your side of the issues, despite the fact that you have Janet Braswell and Reuben Mees on speed dial on your cell phones. In instances where you've had some effective communication, you have it followed up with a letter to the editor, that makes the average person in H'burg, think wow there sure are some nuts over at the College."

I'm glad you mentioned this KK. I have a Letter to the Editor in today's H.A. Please critique it for me so I can "effectively communicate" to the public, faculty and IHL Board things that affect the morale and working effectiveness of the faculty.

How am I a "nut" for doing what any "leader" should do? When I played football the coach always spoke for the team and rebutted negative statements in the press. USM's "leaders" were silent when their team (faculty) was attacked in the press. You must have some really interesting views on leadership.

My problem may be that I didn't grow up on a plantation.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Amen, brother Ray!

NO QUARTER
Anne Wallace

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Ray Folse
" USM's "leaders" were silent when their team (faculty) was attacked in the press."

I assume the silent ones include some department chairs, deans, and others - all the way up to the top.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

The most heartwrenching of all, those who had known and worked with these men for decades, and still were silent.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Cossack
"It does not matter any more who is at fault. The battle will continue. The faculty will win in the end because they are at the point where not much more can be done to them. The lawsuits will soon hit the courts and, if the plaintiff lawyers have any skill, the Board and the Bard members will find themselves being deposed over and over. The Board members have become involved enough that they now are fair game for inclusion, at least to be deposed to find out what they know. USM while being 1/3 of the major Mississippi universities and about 12% of the total universities will occupy over half of the Board and Board members time. That is a disequilibrium that cannot last. After it is over, the remaining faculty will harbor a grudge against the community and the gown and town relations will remain sour for a long time. No one wins and the citizens of Mississippi have suffered another of those all to common self inflicted wounds."

Cossack,

It's precisely because the Board has had more than its fill of USM-related problems to deal with, and it's going to get even more on its plate (partly, but not entirely on account of lawsuits), that in the end it is going to have to get rid of Shelby Thames. Even those who want to hurt USM must be thoroughly sick of Thames and the trouble he keeps bringing in.

But if the folks in Hattiesburg won't acknowledge how lousy a leader Thames has been, and how foolish many of them were to ever support him, the town-gown relationship will remain troubled for a long time to come.

Robert Campbell

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: The blame goes deep
"The most heartwrenching of all, those who had known and worked with these men for decades, and still were silent."

and your statement is one of the most heartwrenching I have seen posted. i would not want to work for anybody who has a track record of abandoning an employee they had worked with for decades and under those circumstances.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Go away, kid
". . . . . . . . . i would not want to work for anybody who has a track record of abandoning an employee they had worked with for decades and under those circumstances.

They were working behind the scenes. Aren't you able to see that after three years?