How many proffs are AAUP members.... - USM Forum -- Message Board

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

How many proffs are AAUP members....

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Dear Mr./Ms. Kudzu King,

Please read the post from Green Hornet to Amy Young. It lists the SACs principles that have been violated due to the mismanagement of the Thames administration. These are the facts, regardless of how many faculty are or are not AAUP members. I do not know the number of current AAUP members at USM, but as a state officer of the AAUP outside of Mississippi, I can tell you that the AAUP has about 45,000 members nationally. So the principles that USM AAUP supports are supported by at least 45,000 other people.

Sincerely,

foot soldier

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Dear Footsy

If you don't have the facts to answer the question please, feel free to but out.

I an not a Thames fan in the least, but at the same time, I am far from an AAUP fan, which is, as I see it, the radical fringe.

Thanks

KK

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Dr. Mr. Kudzu,

Remind me not to try to be polite to a troll.

45,000 is hardly a "fringe."

You can make all the rude remarks you like now, because I won't be responding to you again. But I do suggest that if you're going the trash the AAUP, you ought to at least read the post I suggested.

Sincerely,

foot soldier

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

When talking in nation wide numbers I think 45,000 could very well be considered a fringe. I think that there are many fringe groups accross the nation that have 45k or more members.

What percent of college and university professors nationwide are members of the AAUP, I would guess far less than 10%. Certainly there have to be 500k university professors nationwide in a country of more than 280 million.

I also find it funny that when you find someone who you disagree with or won't drink your kool-aid in one gulp, you label them as a "troll".

I am far from a troll, I am a concerned Hattiesburg businessman, alumnus and financial supporter of the University (not just athletics). I give the same dollar amount to Athletics as I give to the Pride.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

I think it's also accurate to point out that while this message board is provided by the AAUP, many posters on here are not AAUP members but believe in the general principles driving AAUP

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"at Southern Miss? I am asking how many facutly members at USM are paid members to the AAUP? I have been told by several faculty members that the AAUP only has 50-60 actual paid members out of more than 600 faculty membes. Is this true? If this is true, how can you claim to represent the faculty at USM when less than 10% of the faculty choose to be associated with you?"

I'm sorry to say that I'm not and AAUP member. That shame is part of the reason I don't post under my real name. But as a Faculty Senator I can tell you that the AAUP represents and stand up for the principles all faculty uphold as professionals. Don't forget the tactic SFT tried to use with the public bys saying the "AAUP was a union", "only a few trouble makers", etc. He was proved wrong by votes of the Faculty Senate 40-0 for "No Confidence" and 430 to 32 for "No Confidence" by the whole faculty. Later last spring the FS voted 38 to 2 for the board to ask for SFT resignation and just recently the FS voted 39-2 for the board to search for a new president. I have first hand knowledge of the opinions of the faculty, both the tenured ones who may speak out and the untenured ones who are afraid.

If your question was to just collect information, then fine. But when you try to develop an argument based of the number of faculty in AAUP-USM, forget it, you're wasting your time. SFT tried that last year and has now given it up.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

The American Association of University Professors
Academic Freedom for a Free Society

The mission of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP) is to advance academic freedom and shared governance, to define fundamental professional values and standards for higher education, and to ensure higher education's contribution to the common good. Founded in 1915, the AAUP has helped to shape American higher education by developing the standards and procedures that maintain quality in education and academic freedom in this country's colleges and universities.

The AAUP's Statement of Principles on Academic Freedom and Tenure is the definitive articulation of these principles and practices, and is widely accepted throughout the academic community. The Association's procedures ensuring academic due process remain the model for professional employment practices on campuses throughout the country. AAUP's amicus briefs before the U.S. Supreme Court and federal and state appellate courts address significant issues of academic freedom, and our policy statements are frequently cited in court decisions. As a non-profit [501(c)(3)] organization, we serve the profession, rather than individual members, and our services are available to all members of the profession, regardless of membership status.

More than a thousand faculty members call on AAUP each year for advice and assistance. AAUP is best known for assisting individual faculty members when there is the probability that academic freedom or due process rights have been violated. In addition to our "case work," the Association works withCongress and state legislators to promote effective higher education legislation, and promotes the profession and the purposes of higher education in the public eye. College presidents and administrators rely on Association-developed policy statements and procedural guidelines. The Association has recently issued statements on topics such as distance education, intellectual property, graduate student education, and work and family policies.

AAUP annually publishes a nationally acclaimed faculty salary report that includes a comprehensive analysis of faculty salaries and benefits. In addition to its regular programs, AAUP issues reports each year on subjects of special interest. Recent initiatives include reports on the use of part-time and non-tenure-track faculty, faculty workloads and state intervention, the future of Historically Black Colleges and Universities, and tenure in medical schools.

Membership in the national organization is open to all faculty, librarians, and academic professionals at two- and four-year accredited public and private colleges and universities. Current membership is about 45,000, with over 500 local campus chapters and 39 state organizations. Leadership is provided by bi-annually elected national officers drawn from colleges and universities throughout the country. The Association is governed by an elected national Council that meets twice a year, and by an Executive Committee that meets four times a year.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Everyone thank you so much for the helpful information. You've given me quite a bit to digest and read and look into. I think that you will often find that just because someone asks you a hard question, that dosen't mean the are lining up against you. Maybe they just want to know something.

Yet, I still don't know how many members the AAUP has at USM. I guess some questions will never be answered.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Kudzu King,

I know you from the Eagle Talk board and your occasional postings here. I sense that you are someone who is working to convince others in the community that Shelby Thames has been a failure. You have supported Coach Bower's integrity.

Foot Soldier is also a passionate supporter of the university.

What is so unique about this situation is that over 90% of the faculty - faculty that could not be less alike (psychologists and musicians, artists and economists, accountants and philosophers, historians and physicists...) AGREE that Shelby Thames is a disaster in the president's role.

AAUP is but one more voice trying to be heard above the PR spin from the dome.

OE

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"Dear Footsy If you don't have the facts to answer the question please, feel free to but out. I an not a Thames fan in the least, but at the same time, I am far from an AAUP fan, which is, as I see it, the radical fringe. Thanks KK"

Welcome to the board Kudzu King. As I said I'm not a member of AAUP. But to answer your question, I believe Amy Young said recently that there were about 100 or so at USM. (Others please correct me if I'm wrong.)

King, I would like to know where you got the opinion that the AAUP was a "radical fringe group"? All of the best Universities operate under the guidelines supported by AAUP. It isn't a big deal anywhere else that I know of. It is very similar to the best business practices employed by big corporations. (Colleagues in the College of Business can correct me and expand on this.) If you check with people at Ole Miss and MSU, you will find out that their faculty handbook is based on these same principles.

To me it appears the business community didn't know about SACS and "Principles of Academia". I didn’t expect you to. There was no need because you should never be making decisions on these issues anyway. To the faculty it seems as odd as a person trying to run a business without realizing the IRS existed. I'm sure you would agree that business was heading for trouble form day one.

I hope that helps. I enjoyed the chat.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

As I said I am far from a Thames fan and supporter. I think that some of the things that Thames has attempted will be good for the University in the long run. But, his methods, I cannot endorse or support. I think that his time as an effective leader has passed.

I don't believe he should be removed now, but at the same time. I think a second term would be ill advised.

You have probably read my thoughts on a variety of things on Eagle Post, not EagleTalk. I have different name on EagleTalk. Southern Miss is bigger than Thames. It will endure long after he's gone. There will be some setbacks to recover from when he is gone, but he doesn’t have the power to destroy Southern Miss.

I think too much of the efforts here and on the Bob Mixon side of the argument are being focused on Thames. Thames is not the problem; he is only a symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is the IHL....yet another state agency that is biased against South Mississippi. Until, we begin electing leaders to the State House, Senate and other State officials that will give South Mississippi (and Southern Miss) equal representation we will continue to have these problems.

This is nothing new; it just affects this particular group more than have other ill-advised programs over the years.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"Everyone thank you so much for the helpful information. You've given me quite a bit to digest and read and look into. I think that you will often find that just because someone asks you a hard question, that dosen't mean the are lining up against you. Maybe they just want to know something.

Yet, I still don't know how many members the AAUP has at USM. I guess some questions will never be answered."

AAUP USM has approximately 65 paid-up members at present. With the mass exodus of faculty last year we lost in the neighborhood of 20 members. I am sorry I don't have themembership role to share exact numbers with you on the fine Sunday morning before church.

I can tell you that we have one of the strongest and largest chapters in this partof the country! We have, by far, the largest membership in the state.

What kind of representation of faculty is this? I believe that many more faculty would join AAUP except for folks who attempt to demonize and revile a long-standing and quite conservative professional organization! Many faculty have express fear of joining because of fear of reprisals - and they have good reason to be afraid. I also believe that more faculty at USM would join, but given the fiscal austerity we are experiencing, lack of raises, except for last year, for a very long time plus the loss of medical and other benefits, more faculty would join. At least that is what faculty across campus tell me.

Given the number of faculty who returned our survey (210), I believe we represent faculty quite well. We are not a substitute for Faculty Senate, they are the elected body who represent faculty on many issues. But AAUP represents faculty on issues of shared governance and academic freedom which are the pillars of higher education.

Amy Young

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"As I said I am far from a Thames fan and supporter. I think that some of the things that Thames has attempted will be good for the University in the long run. But, his methods, I cannot endorse or support. I think that his time as an effective leader has passed. I don't believe he should be removed now, but at the same time. I think a second term would be ill advised. You have probably read my thoughts on a variety of things on Eagle Post, not EagleTalk. I have different name on EagleTalk. Southern Miss is bigger than Thames. It will endure long after he's gone. There will be some setbacks to recover from when he is gone, but he doesn’t have the power to destroy Southern Miss. I think too much of the efforts here and on the Bob Mixon side of the argument are being focused on Thames. Thames is not the problem; he is only a symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is the IHL....yet another state agency that is biased against South Mississippi. Until, we begin electing leaders to the State House, Senate and other State officials that will give South Mississippi (and Southern Miss) equal representation we will continue to have these problems. This is nothing new; it just affects this particular group more than have other ill-advised programs over the years. "

Kudzu King, I read this post looking for something to rebut. I have to agree with everything you said, except the best time for SFT to leave is debatable. I know of faculty who are ready to leave or retire based on the IHL Board's decision. If they just say SFT will not be given another term and a search will begin, these faculty may stay. However they need to make a decision very soon and the IHL is dragging its feet. If they wait until there May meeting it will be too late for these faculty, even if they fire SFT on the spot. So you see this is a very critical time. USM will need these experience and talented faculty to rebuild. Remember the bad professors are not the ones leaving for better jobs.

ps. If you are a "troll", they must have changed the definition of "troll" while I wasn't looking. Thanks for all you can do to help.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"As I said I am far from a Thames fan and supporter. I think that some of the things that Thames has attempted will be good for the University in the long run. But, his methods, I cannot endorse or support. I think that his time as an effective leader has passed. I don't believe he should be removed now, but at the same time. I think a second term would be ill advised. "

Kudzu King,

How would you receive someone who, having just made his first appearance on EagleTalk, tells a regular to "butt out"?

But let's get past that. Since you 've concluded that Thames is no longer an effective leader, why not call for his immediate removal?

USM is in a true crisis situation. Thames is primarily responsible for the crisis. The only reason he has not done worse damage is because of direct orders from above (such as Crofts telling him to repudiate the Black Friday memo).

And Thames is notoriously vindictive.

Do you really want to see another year of the damage that Thames can do?

Robert Campbell

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"Dear Footsy If you don't have the facts to answer the question please, feel free to but out. I an not a Thames fan in the least, but at the same time, I am far from an AAUP fan, which is, as I see it, the radical fringe. Thanks KK"

Hi Kudzu King, I can say from my previous administrative experiences at major universities elsewhere that AAUP is as much pro- administration as it is pro -faculty. More specifically, it is pro- due process, pro- academic freedom, and pro- shared goverance. I can confirm for sure that AAUP at the national level does not take kindly to a faculty member abusing tenure, and it stands ready to provide a university administration with advice and guidance when so requested. It is not a radical fringe and I regret that you see it that way. Furthermore, if the USM administration had fully subscribed to the principles contained in what is generally referred to as the AAUP "Red Book," USM's current problems would not have occurred.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

I realize that many here may feel uncomfortable with the list of SACS violations as put forward by AAUP, but whether you agree with AAUP or not, whether you "buy into" the principles of shared governance and academic freedom or not, it doesn't change the facts about SACS. Discrediting the messenger (by calling the chapter non-representative or "fringe" or whatever) is faulty logic.

Amy Young

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Guys

I understand the longstanding disdane for Thames, it's been well earned. But, to solve the problem at USM we have to move pass Thames and go for the head of the snake - IHL.

When Thames is removed, there will be jubilation across campus. But, that is only a short term solution. We never had any IHL problems under Lucas, because he never asked for USM to be given equal status as UM and MSU. That's what got Fleming in trouble and the IHL played Bob Mixon and other Athletic Supporters against Fleming. As I recall, many of you were not fond of Fleming either, a tabled no confidence vote perhaps?

At any rate. We have two choices when Thames is removed. We can accept another Lucas type admin who will toe the line, keep the faculty happy, but let the IHL run over them. We don't need another like Thames either.

I just wish we could find someone with Vision like Thames and leadership stability like Lucas. Flemings biggest problem was that he bucked the Athletic Boosters, the IHL used them to seal his fate.

Who knows.....it'll be an interesting ride.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"I realize that many here may feel uncomfortable with the list of SACS violations as put forward by AAUP, but whether you agree with AAUP or not, whether you "buy into" the principles of shared governance and academic freedom or not, it doesn't change the facts about SACS. Discrediting the messenger (by calling the chapter non-representative or "fringe" or whatever) is faulty logic.

Amy Young"

Dr Young

My only problem is that you are pointing to the messenger as well. Get over Thames, he's a simple pawn. The IHL is where the problem lies. That is why your letters to the IHL go unanswered.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

I would advise Amy to sent the same 15-point indictment of Thames' performance directly to SACS.

With the Board, it's always prudent to assume that your letter may be filed in the circular file. I hope no one forgets Robin Robinson's statement last summer that all of her mail was pro-Thames.

Robert Campbell

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

sorry... to send

RC

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"I would advise Amy to sent the same 15-point indictment of Thames' performance directly to SACS. With the Board, it's always prudent to assume that your letter may be filed in the circular file. I hope no one forgets Robin Robinson's statement last summer that all of her mail was pro-Thames. Robert Campbell"

How many of the past several IHL board meetings has Ms. Robinson attended?

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"I am asking how many facutly members at USM are paid members to the AAUP? I have been told by several faculty members that the AAUP only has 50-60 actual paid members out of more than 600 faculty membes. Is this true? If this is true, how can you claim to represent the faculty at USM when less than 10% of the faculty choose to be associated with you?"

An excellent question, Mr. Kudzu. But how many people who vote Republican are actually members of the Republican party? The number of people who are active in a party is very small, but their principles attract millions of voters. Thus, the Faculty Senate votes of no confidence and the faculty wide vote of no confidence demonstrate that the appeal of AAUP principles at USM is almost universal. Also, the academic guidelines for tenure, promotion, shared governance, and academic freedom at an overwhelming majority of universities closely mirror AAUP publications.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"more than 600 faculty"

Seems like we've been round and round about this but aren't there less than 500 tenured or tenure track faculty members?

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"Guys I understand the longstanding disdane for Thames, it's been well earned. But, to solve the problem at USM we have to move pass Thames and go for the head of the snake - IHL. When Thames is removed, there will be jubilation across campus. But, that is only a short term solution. We never had any IHL problems under Lucas, because he never asked for USM to be given equal status as UM and MSU. That's what got Fleming in trouble and the IHL played Bob Mixon and other Athletic Supporters against Fleming. As I recall, many of you were not fond of Fleming either, a tabled no confidence vote perhaps? At any rate. We have two choices when Thames is removed. We can accept another Lucas type admin who will toe the line, keep the faculty happy, but let the IHL run over them. We don't need another like Thames either. I just wish we could find someone with Vision like Thames and leadership stability like Lucas. Flemings biggest problem was that he bucked the Athletic Boosters, the IHL used them to seal his fate. Who knows.....it'll be an interesting ride. "

I think many on this board agree with you Kudzu King -- the IHL and the politics of North vs South Mississippi, the "Big Two" in the north vs USM in the south is definitely a major contributor to our troubles.

Still, the issue for many of us is very immediate -- this administration is pulling the institution down faster than we can patch it up. If the administration doesn;t go soon -- there won;t be enough folks left here with memory and rank to stand up to the bullies and pick up the pieces once they leave.

The most effective pressur eto enact chnages on the Board can come from the outside -- from folks like you who have access to the folks who can make it happen. We got close in the last round -- after all, the board is no longer based on 7 congressional districts -- three of which no longer exist. That allowed the Ol MIss and State people to really dominate.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

It is lost on no one that the two tenured profs whom SFT attacked, Glamser and Stringer were, local Pres of AAUP and chief investigator for local AAUP. In short, unless one has the stamina, retirement years built up, or international reputation, or deep pockets, it is lost on NO faculty member that SFT will retaliate. If over 400 faculty vote against the guy but only 60 join a group then it might have far more to do with fear and the real world of living in this environment than anything else. Thank god there are 60 people willing to be fired and put on the line because in this environment that is what happens.
\
As to the IHL. Spot on. True. They are the problem. Happily, SACS has its own integrity to defend. If they let this IHL get away with a pres like Shelby they have to worry that over 700 other schools will want to do the same. SACS will have to make an example of the IHL just to defend their own integrity as a responsible agency.

The good news for us is that next week we can look forward to THE NEXT STUPID THING which will dominate all teh papers and once again make the IHL look ridiculous for threatening the well being of this state.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: fear
"The good news for us is that next week we can look forward to THE NEXT STUPID THING which will dominate all teh papers and once again make the IHL look ridiculous for threatening the well being of this state. "

The cycle is accelerating, isn't it?

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

i agree with some of what people say and disagree with others. but don't think for one minute that the reputation of SACS is going to hang on what happens at USM. they deal with hundreds of institutions, USM is but one. SACS' reputation is based on their overall track record.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

Kudzu King,

To return briefly to a question you asked earlier, I suspect that the main reason there are not more members nationally in AAUP is simply (and ironically) because at most universities and colleges the principles AAUP endorses are practiced and embraced by the administration. There is thus no great need (in the minds of many people) to be a member or even to have a chapter. For instance, no chapter exists at my university because (although we have had our ups and downs) we have NEVER had an adminstrator like Shelby Thames. However, I have never met a faculty member anywhere who does not endorse the basic principles of the AAUP. Many do not join simply because (1) they work at schools where there are sensible, capable administrators and (2) they see no reason to pay dues to an organization for which they perceive no immediate, local need.

At USM, I think the figures that should be uppermost in your mind are the nearly-unanimous no-confidence votes by the whole faculty and the faculty senate, not the mention the consistent results of various polls in the HA, which Shelby has routinely lost, always with at least 90% voting against him. I think you can safely assume that many of the "no" votes in those polls were cast by USM faculty, since they are the ones most affected by Shelby's ineptness. I have never seen a faculty more united in their opinions on any issue as is the case of the USM faculty in their opposition to Shelby Thames. This is one of his few accomplishments as a uniter rather than divider.

Permalink · Date: Mar 13, 2005

PS:

I should also have mentioned that at many universities and colleges (especially in the north) there are faculty unions that effectively serve some of the functions served by AAUP. I doubt that Shelby would ever have been able to get away with some of what he has done if USM had a union. I am not, by the way, calling for a union; I am very aware that unions can sometimes be monopolistic in their own ways. I am simply saying that the existence of unions at many campuses helps explain why national AAUP membership is not even greater than it already is.