SACS timeline - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 7, 2005

SACS timeline

Date: Feb 7, 2005

well, despite some reports to the contrary some planning and assessment should/and have been occurring for about two years, at least at the academic level. my department has been gathering assessment data for two years. i read the first item as a reminder.

now, other units have not. but, the way you deal with no data is to be truthful. we don't have it, but here's how we plan to gather it. some units have data, but didn't have a formal plan to guide its gathering, and they can honestly say--we knew what we ought to be doing to assess our operation, but we didn't have a formal plan that guided it. (for some of you, how can you gather data without such a plan? some of this is good old common sense. doesn't require a rocket scientist).

the core assessment has nothing, that i know of, to do with distance education monitoring. however, we should have been assessing the core curriculum for the last 10 years (for those that know me, my beef). some assessment was done about 3-4 years ago, none of the previous core curriculum, and none of the current curriculum.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

Joan Exline met with Academic Council at our regular meeting yesterday. She gave an update.

Apparently, the only person working on the probation material is Exline herself. All of the committees are working on reaffirmation - which is essentially the next round. So, with regard to distance learning and probation, I guess it's all up to Exline and the rest of us are pretty much in the dark until she produces her report.

We asked whether the SACS consultant said that we should not add new programs while on probation. Exline said she would find out the details, but there are some circumstances where new programs must also be approved by SACS in addition to program, then college, then Academic/Graduate Councils, provost, and IHL.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
" Apparently, the only person working on the probation material is Exline herself. All of the committees are working on reaffirmation - which is essentially the next round. So, with regard to distance learning and probation, I guess it's all up to Exline and the rest of us are pretty much in the dark until she produces her report. "

This is unbelievable. Do they think nobody else can help? Are there things they don't want anybody else to know?

Date: Feb 8, 2005

amy--i'm not sure whether you are paraphrasing or directly quoting the question asked of exline about new programs. if you asked whether the SACS consultant said USM should not add new programs, that may be the wrong question. the SACS consultant probably said that it would be inadvisable for the university to do so. "should not" is something the consultant is not likely to say, particularly since the consultant does not speak for SACS in an official capacity (see the SACS website). and yes, exline is technically correct, some new programs would have to be approved by SACS. whether that is true of any new program being contemplated or currently in the pipeline is unclear, at least to me.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

to add to my previous comment, part of the issue (because i found out it was raised at another meeting yesterday) is whether programs that were approved via the appropriate councilsand procedures, etc. in the fall can go ahead and be implemented.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"Joan Exline met with Academic Council at our regular meeting yesterday. She gave an update.

Apparently, the only person working on the probation material is Exline herself. All of the committees are working on reaffirmation - which is essentially the next round. So, with regard to distance learning and probation, I guess it's all up to Exline and the rest of us are pretty much in the dark until she produces her report.

We asked whether the SACS consultant said that we should not add new programs while on probation. Exline said she would find out the details, but there are some circumstances where new programs must also be approved by SACS in addition to program, then college, then Academic/Graduate Councils, provost, and IHL.

"

Amy,

If only Exline (and, presumably, Hamilton) are working on dealing with probation, it isn't going to get dealt with.

Robert Campbell

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
" Amy, If only Exline (and, presumably, Hamilton) are working on dealing with probation, it isn't going to get dealt with. Robert Campbell"

This is just so wrong....so, so very wrong. SFT just doesn't get how much trouble USM is in, does he?

After reading this, do those of you who simply assume that SACS won't let USM lose accreditation still think that?

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
" Amy, If only Exline (and, presumably, Hamilton) are working on dealing with probation, it isn't going to get dealt with. Robert Campbell"

Robert,

The smaller the group writing, the fewer leaks. Who knows what will be sent to SACS "proving" we had assesments done.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

It has been said that all materials will be on the Web site.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Reporter
" Robert, The smaller the group writing, the fewer leaks. Who knows what will be sent to SACS "proving" we had assesments done."

Yes, the reporting process should be monitored carefully. We heed to adhere to the admonition that is suggested in the diddy, "Who's taking care of the caretaker's daughter while the carecaker's taking care."

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
" Amy, If only Exline (and, presumably, Hamilton) are working on dealing with probation, it isn't going to get dealt with. Robert Campbell"

I don't even hear a whisper of Shared Governance.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"well, despite some reports to the contrary some planning and assessment should/and have been occurring for about two years, at least at the academic level. my department has been gathering assessment data for two years. i read the first item as a reminder. [SNIP]"

SCM is right. It is rare that a department would have no assessment data, assuming that the faculty in that department were in the least bit serious about what they were doing. Lack of a formal plan to guide them is a drawback & must be admitted; in that case, it's up to SACS' readers whether the institution gets slapped again for that.

Remember, USM has been cited for failure to demonstrate institutional effectiveness in its distance learning programs. Doing that right involves evaluations of more than just the instructional programs -- the infrastructure, policies, provision of student services for online students, etc. must all be assessed. Basically, any service that's available to a traditional student must be available to an online student. And saying "well, they have to come to campus for that" is a very weak response.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Reporter
"
The smaller the group writing, the fewer leaks. Who knows what will be sent to SACS "proving" we had assesments done."

Reporter,

I think you're right.

I was thinking that two people (neither of them particularly knowledgeable about accreditation) coudn't get the assessment work done.

But two people can pretend that assessment work has been done.

Robert

Date: Feb 8, 2005

i think Amy's post may be a bit misleading. it may be that exline is focusing her efforts on the probation portion (distance learning), but there are lots of others involved on compliance committees. joy hamilton has been helping some. i know amy is working tirelessly on one of these compliance committees right now. departments have a rubric by which to evaluate their assessment plans. this would have normally have to be done, the difference right now is that it's being done in a smaller time frame. and let's not forget, there are lots of staff members helping in this effort.

a lot (if not all) of these materials will be posted on the web. how much is publically available varies from institution to institution. some use password protected websites.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

scm,

How much confidence do you have in Exline and her operation?

Robert Campbell

Date: Feb 8, 2005

robert--it's a tough question to answer because she's all we've got. i do think that the people i've heard of serving on various committees are "worker bees." i believe that a superior is no better than the people working for him/her. exline has got some good folks working on the various committees. they are somewhat stressed because of deadlines and the like, but i think these people will pull it off (i still think our probation will be extended a year). there are several on these committees that are not afraid of challenging exline if they think something inappropriate, ill-advised, or bone-headed is being recommended.

that being said, thames is the X-factor. if he continues to pursue things like the executive mba program, or if he doesn't do what exline and these various committees say, all bets are off.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

RE Distance Learning/Branch Campus Assessments:

Folks, I understand from Faculty Senate that the Library Issue at Gulf Park may be a part of any assessment ---There was a plan for Gulf Park, Board approved it, state and federal court cases were fought and USM swore to that plan--the plan pledged site based accreditation for Gulf Park and it pledged the Library and the steady build up of library resources at Gulf Park to the tune of a specific amount of dollars for books for each year above the base library budget there in the era before freshman admissions---

SACS assessment has to look at that. There is a plan. Shelby scrapped the plan to do the diploma mill executive MBA in the space promised to library expansion...Compare the plan to the performance. That is assessment. If SACS finds out we are in big trouble, don't you think. Will the SACS inquiry get that far?

I say with "Old Curiosity Shop" we must all of us tell all to SACS now in order to save the institution from this fake provost and Captain McQuage. SACS is our friend in saving the place from a fate worst than death--TELL ALL SYSTEMATICALLy.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"robert--it's a tough question to answer because she's all we've got. i do think that the people i've heard of serving on various committees are "worker bees." i believe that a superior is no better than the people working for him/her. exline has got some good folks working on the various committees. they are somewhat stressed because of deadlines and the like, but i think these people will pull it off (i still think our probation will be extended a year). there are several on these committees that are not afraid of challenging exline if they think something inappropriate, ill-advised, or bone-headed is being recommended. that being said, thames is the X-factor. if he continues to pursue things like the executive mba program, or if he doesn't do what exline and these various committees say, all bets are off. "

scm,

My concern is that Exline appears to be withholding information from one group of "worker bees." And that in turn makes me wonder whose work she is actually relying on.

As far as the X-factor goes, of course Exline wouldn't have come up with the demand to create an Executive MBA program, instantly, or else. But will she dare to criticize it, while Shelby remains on the throne?

Robert Campbell

Date: Feb 8, 2005

Some further SACS questions (and please forgive my ignorance; I think we're all trying to get up to speed on what this means, and are not getting much help from the often-obscurantist powers-that-be):

We have heard much on this board about SACS and its concern with matters of shared governance; we're not on probation for that, techinically. But will those who determine whether or not we get off probation be investigating other matters--like (the lack of) shared governance? Does the on-site visit happen for reaffirmation AND for getting us off probation, or just for one or the other? And since our admin is not going to bring the issue forward, who can/will--and at what point?

In short: how do we bring the problems with shared governance to the attention of the SACS folks? Who does this? And when? Or can we assume they already know? If our administration is submitting all of the reports, this issue is going to be obscured, no? How does one bring to the forefront an issue that the official record is likely to bury??

Thanks to anyone who can help clarify some of this.

Ellen Weinauer

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Ellen Weinauer
"How does one bring to the forefront an issue that the official record is likely to bury?? Thanks to anyone who can help clarify some of this."

I assume that SACS site visitors would provide some sort of mechanism for all faculty members who so desired to provide input.That is the way at other universities.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

rumor has it the visit date for the team concerned with the probation issue will be Sept. 6 and 7

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: amazed
"rumor has it the visit date for the team concerned with the probation issue will be Sept. 6 and 7 "

That's not during the between semesters break, is it? Surely not.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Cleverly Scheduled
"That's not during the between semesters break, is it? Surely not."

No. It's the Tuesday & Wednesday after Labor Day. Classes will be in session.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Magnolia
"No. It's the Tuesday & Wednesday after Labor Day. Classes will be in session."

Thank you, Maggie.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

let me try and address a couple of the questions raised (always remembering i could be mistaken).

robert--i'm not sure what group exline may be withholding information from. the information on distance education (i'm assuming you're referring to this area) will be scrutinized by the SACS folks. they're critical thinkers--they are pretty good, if not real good, at seeing through subterfuge. as to exline and the eMBA--if she won't criticize it, others will. and given the emphasis on documentation right now, the disagreement will be documented. makes it harder to ignore.

ellen--the visiting team will be here for both probation and reaffirmation. however, much of the reaffirmation/compliance is done via the documents on the web, and often times the SACS team meets in Atlanta and does the review. that said, however, they can direct the visiting team to look at certain things. they are supposed to determine whether the materials they reviewed and things "on the ground" are consistent. the visiting team can look at anything they want to, including shared governance. i suspect our visiting team leader, lord, is already well aware of the issues here. at the same time, visiting teams are also aware that there are dissidents on all campuses. they will listen but also listen with a critical ear--to all points of view. i don't know whether there will be a public way to get to the visiting team.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

What happens if SACS finds this whole attempt to get our act together wanting. Do we lose accreditation next year? Or do we get another year of probation?

Date: Feb 8, 2005

if SACS doesn't think when they meet in Dec. that we've got it together, we could be placed on another year's probation (the most likely scenario in my judgment). at the end of that second year, however, if we don't have our act together we will lose our accreditation. no extension past then.