A new SACS faux pas?? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 25, 2005

A new SACS faux pas??

Date: Jan 25, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Head_scratcher
"Apparently the independent SACS consultant met with the deans today and told them that a university on probation was not permitted to implement any new programs while on probationary status. Ooops................ "

Does this mean no "reorganization" of the College of Business, new academic programs (across campus), or new academic majors being brought before IHL??????

Date: Jan 25, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Head_scratcher
"Apparently the independent SACS consultant met with the deans today and told them that a university on probation was not permitted to implement any new programs while on probationary status. Ooops................
"

Can someone confirm this? While, it is certainly not advisable to implement any new programs in the area being scrutinized by SACS (i.e., distance learning), but I've never heard that an institution on probation can't implement new programs. Of course, I've never had to work at an institution that was on probation...

Date: Jan 25, 2005

well-SACS is never going to tell you what you can or can't do. they'll tell you what is smart or advisable or what is stupid or not advisable. as i heard it, the SACS person (i know who it is but am avoiding the name) said it would not be smart to introduce new programs while under probation. typical SACS advice--straightforward, no bs. interesting points about faculty credentialling and exceptions.

Date: Jan 26, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"well-SACS is never going to tell you what you can or can't do. they'll tell you what is smart or advisable or what is stupid or not advisable. as i heard it, the SACS person (i know who it is but am avoiding the name) said it would not be smart to introduce new programs while under probation. typical SACS advice--straightforward, no bs. interesting points about faculty credentialling and exceptions."

Yep, that is exactly what SACS representatives do -- they don't say "do this" or "do that," but they will say "doing this is not wise" & "doing it this way is usually accepatable."

I'm interested in what you've heard vis-a-vis credentialling & exceptions, SCM. (I know what they usually say, but I'm interested in how it might have been expressed at an institution that has been, um, fairly inconsistent with exceptions lately.)

Date: Jan 26, 2005

USM was told that the most curmudgeonly people on a visiting team are those that check faculty credentials. exceptions should be exceptional and limited in number. i know there are people teaching in graduate programs that do not have terminal degees (in their discipline or any other). i've heard that the graduate council is going to review graduate faculty status shortly--hasn't been done in about 5 years.

Date: Jan 26, 2005

SCM, the Grad Council is going to review grad programs, which I assume includes grad faculty credentials--I believe it was last done in 2000. I'm on that committee (sigh) but don't yet have much understanding of what we'll be doing. Susan Siltanen said that the model that's being put forth is the program review process at North Carolina State and that one can see this on the NCSU website (www.ncsu.edu).

Interesting takes on how SACS says things . . . helpful to know, since that language might well be misinterpreted. It's kind of like the way my mother used to say, "I'll let you take out the trash." She didn't mean it was an option!

NO QUARTER.
Anne Wallace

Date: Jan 26, 2005

Taking the double-barrelled shotgun approach...

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"USM was told that the most curmudgeonly people on a visiting team are those that check faculty credentials."

"Curmudgeonly" isn't exactly the first word that comes to my mind! But it will do. My experience is that the folks who have to check credentials tend to be the team members who end up with the heaviest paper load. Other team members can visit, interview, walk around campus. The ones who review faculty credentials end up having to sit all day long riffling through stacks of folders. Needless to say, they prefer their work to require as little thought as possible. And I can certainly sympathize.

quote:
Originally posted by: Anne Wallace
"It's kind of like the way my mother used to say, "I'll let you take out the trash." She didn't mean it was an option!"

Well put! That's exactly how SACS-talk works.

Take a sentence like, "Integrity in the pursuit of knowledge is expected to govern the total environment of an institution," for example. In plain English, this means, "Don't lie to us."

My experience has been that if SACS "suggests" a particular format for a report (e.g., faculty roster), it means "use this format or else."

Date: Jan 26, 2005

invictus--or it means--if you don't use this format you better have a d*mn good reason for not .

Date: Jan 26, 2005

Anne, would you pleae give me background on "no quarter"? tHANKS.

Date: Jan 26, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: a newbie
"Anne, would you pleae give me background on "no quarter"? tHANKS."

With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plea; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost.

William Lloyd Garrison
US abolitionist & editor (1805 - 1879)

Date: Jan 26, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: ram
" With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plea; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost. William Lloyd GarrisonUS abolitionist & editor (1805 - 1879) "

Which poster first made reference to NO QUARTER on this message board (or on the FireShelby board)? Was it Anne Wallace?

Date: Jan 27, 2005

Does it surprise anybody that Thames had the last-minute revelation that introducing the EMBA program would be really, really bad? Another instance of his ignorance of the "way things work" hurting USM.

Date: Jan 27, 2005

Along these discussion lines, when did USM start offering a "doctoral degree in Business with primary concentration in International and Economic Development"?

Date: Jan 27, 2005

the 1999-2000 graduate bulletin lists the program. given the dates on catalogue copy, the program would probably have been approved 1998-1999 academic year.

Date: Jan 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"the 1999-2000 graduate bulletin lists the program. given the dates on catalogue copy, the program would probably have been approved 1998-1999 academic year. "

You are contending that a PhD in International Development with a concentration in economic development is the same thing as a PhD in Business?

Date: Jan 27, 2005

i'm just telling you what is in the graduate bulletin. check it out yourself.

Date: Jan 27, 2005

I've read through this and other threads and I've checked the source documents. A doctorate in business degree and an IDV PHD are NOT the same thing. AACSB is going to pull the rug out from under these idiots and it's not going to fall on the business school when it happens. AACSB, as an accrediting agency, is set up to keep exactly what is happening from happening. You cannot have unqualified teachers and unaccredited programs being promoted or delivered as business programs and expect the business school to remain accredited. If you check out the IDV webpage thoroughly (and quickly before they change it) you will see that many of the current students think they're in a business program. Evidently, the dome doesn't care about business school accreditation. Let the Business School lose accreditation and then build it up at a later time in Economic Development? Who is going to do that after Shelby is long gone? The geographers? The polymer scientists? There won't be any business profs left. The older ones will retire and the younger ones will move on. So, they'll rebuild with newly minted ED grads from their own program and ignore AACSB? Give me a break! How long will that take? It's time that the business alums understand the severity of what Shelby's pettiness and ignorance will cause. You think SACS has teeth? You've never been bitten by AACSB.

Date: Jan 27, 2005

rabid eagle--SACS trumps AACSB. even if the business college was pristine with AACSB, if the university isn't good with SACS it makes no diffference.