For the anti-athletics posters on this board - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 5, 2005

For the anti-athletics posters on this board

Date: Jan 5, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: YAConcernedAlumnus
"I've read a number of posts on here deriding USM athletic program and questioning the usefulness of it's existence. Please read the article linked below. I'm posting it as food for thought and not to start any drama. It is about Virginia Tech's 1999 football season and the impact it had on the entire university: A Win From A Loss A quote from the article: The impact of that 1999 season goes beyond athletics. Applications, both in quality and quantity, have risen at the Blacksburg, Va., school whose enrollment is capped at 21,000. This year's freshman class had an average grade-point-average of 3.7 with a 1,260 SAT score. "

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I too have been puzzled by some of the hostile remarks directed at USM athletics, although I'll concede that they're in the minority. They seem especially peculiar when considering that Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, Cal-Berkley, and most other wurl class American universities field athletic teams. Even Oxford and Cambridge, so where's the rub? Mens sana in corpore sano, ya know.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

I think the derision is really more about the appropriateness of including it in a survey that is part of an ad involving a doctoral program. I just don't see Harvard or Stanford emphasizing their football teams as part of the invitation to join their doctoral progra,s. To be fair, I'd be happier with the term "sports programs" over singling out just football. I happen to love sports, btw, but it had little to do with where I completed my doctoral program. And, I have close ties to some of the key individuals in the USM football program and wish nothing but the best for the program; however, it just seems pretty sophomoric to include football in a survey where they are apparently trying to get people to sign up for what appears to amount to an online degree.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

While I enjoy USM athletics, I think the article about Virginia Tech is an excellent example of our old pal, post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Remember the source: a sportswriter. Of course, it's all attributable to VT's appearance in the '99 Sugar Bowl, right? We have no idea what other things have been going on at VT (or in that particular part of the country) that might have influenced applications.

But I'll tell you this: Increase the number of applications & you can ratchet up the admissions quality.

If athletic success translated into better quality freshman applicants & more of 'em, then USM's average entering ACT score should have passed both MSU & Ole Miss years ago & USM officials would never need to use an unpurged "continuous enrollment" roster to exceed the headcount at State.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: YAConcernedAlumnus
"I've read a number of posts on here deriding USM athletic program and questioning the usefulness of it's existence."

You were reading fairly selectively if you missed the countless posts in strong support of Jeff Bower. People here are questioning priorities, not athletics.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

Concerned Alumnus,

Most faculty members have degrees from major universities that have outstanding athletic programs, and they fully understand the importance of such programs (not just football). However, if you have a Ph.D. from Texas, Michigan, or Vanderbilt, you know the difference between a good football team and a good university. Troy State has a good football team, but nobody would mistake it for a good university.

Virginia Tech has been a first class university for at least twenty years (U.S. News, upper tier two). Their athletic program (excluding football) has only recently become respectable. Faculty complaints deal with priorities and they reflect a desire to see USM become a good university. Judging from the recent tier four rating and SAC's probation, a focus on academics would be a good thing.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

I am also a supporter of college athletics and student athletes and for that reason I want neither of them to represent (or be represented by) a university on academic probation. Love your university sports? Demand an administration that knows how to run a university!

Date: Jan 5, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"While I enjoy USM athletics, I think the article about Virginia Tech is an excellent example of our old pal, post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Remember the source: a sportswriter. Of course, it's all attributable to VT's appearance in the '99 Sugar Bowl, right? We have no idea what other things have been going on at VT (or in that particular part of the country) that might have influenced applications. But I'll tell you this: Increase the number of applications & you can ratchet up the admissions quality. If athletic success translated into better quality freshman applicants & more of 'em, then USM's average entering ACT score should have passed both MSU & Ole Miss years ago & USM officials would never need to use an unpurged "continuous enrollment" roster to exceed the headcount at State."

All of Virginia's state universities have seen significant growth in applications/enrollment over the past decade - some explosively so, though not all of them have power-house sports teams. Perhaps this has more to do with academic reputation (and reality)??

Date: Jan 5, 2005

Invictus, you are right. And you are too, Angeline. And your comments are also right on the mark, Curmudgeon. I just returned from New Orleans where I saw Virginia Tech play Auburn in the 2005 Sugar Bowl. Upon my return to Blacksburg, I read the very naive and unsophisticated Times-Picayune article about Virginia Tech posted on this thread by YAConcernedAlunnus. I believe I am qualified to provide an informed response, and I will try to keep it brief.

I was head of Virginia Tech's psychology department for many years until I returned to my native state of Mississippi in order to accept an appointment at USM. I now reside in Blacksburg, Virginia and am writing this from my scenic mountain home located just two miles from the Tech campus. I maintain regular contact with VT faculty and administrators through my membership in the Virginia Tech University Club and through my other activities here in Blacksburg.

The main point I want to make is that Virginia Tech achieved eminence in academics long before it became a football power. Academics is paramount here, and it has been for quite some time.

Virginia Tech has a superb athletic program, no doubt about that. But contrary to what was said in the Times-Picayune article, Virginia Tech's strong athletic tradition predates the 1999 Sugar Bowl. As a matter of fact, it won the 1995 Sugar Bowl when it beat the University of Texas. In 1986 Virginia Tech beat North Carolina State in the Peach Bowl. I attended the 1981 Peach Bowl where I saw Virginia Tech play the University of Miami; and even before that I saw Virginia Tech become the NIT basketball champion, beating Notre Dame in overtime. Virginia Tech beat Miami in football seven out of the past eleven years; they have been in the top 10 four times during the past ten years; they won three Big East titles and are the current ACC champions in their inaugural year in that conference. More importantly, Virginia Tech's athletes are truly student-athletes in the very best sense of the term. Many of them were enrolled in classes I taught here in the 70's and 80's, and I can attest to their academic ability. Virginia Tech's starting quarterback, Brian Randall, was just awarded an $18,000 academic scholarship. Further, Virginia Tech is one of only five schools in the nation that has been invited to twelve straight bowl games. Women's athletics has an equally stellar history at Tech. Thus, it would appear that the writer of the Times-Picayune article that was posted on this thread knows very little about Virginia Tech's athletics or its academics!

It is appropriate to note further that students flock here from all over the nation. Virginia Tech is a magnet for the very best students, irrespective of the university's athletic reputation. For many years it has been among the nation's top universities in terms of extramural grant funding; and it maintains one of the finest corporate research parks anywhere.

A little off topic, but I do want to make one more point. For many years Virginia Tech has been a strong AAUP institution. The principles of academic freedom, shared governance, a strong and fair tenure system, and personnel decisions based on merit are all woven into the very fabric of this institution.

Again, contrary to the statements in that Times-Picayune article, all of this occurred long before Virginia Tech became a power in athletics.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: C.D. Noblin
"Invictus, you are right. And you are too, Angeline. And your comments are also right on the mark, Curmudgeon. I just returned from New Orleans where I saw Virginia Tech play Auburn in the 2005 Sugar Bowl. Upon my return to Blacksburg, I read the very naive and unsophisticated Times-Picayune article about Virginia Tech posted on this thread by YAConcernedAlunnus. I believe I am qualified to provide an informed response, and I will try to keep it brief. I was head of Virginia Tech's psychology department for many years until I returned to my native state of Mississippi in order to accept an appointment at USM. I now reside in Blacksburg, Virginia and am writing this from my scenic mountain home located just two miles from the Tech campus. I maintain regular contact with VT faculty and administrators through my membership in the Virginia Tech University Club and through my other activities here in Blacksburg. The main point I want to make is that Virginia Tech achieved eminence in academics long before it became a football power. Academics is paramount here, and it has been for quite some time. Virginia Tech has a superb athletic program, no doubt about that. But contrary to what was said in the Times-Picayune article, Virginia Tech's strong athletic tradition predates the 1999 Sugar Bowl. As a matter of fact, it won the 1995 Sugar Bowl when it beat the University of Texas. In 1986 Virginia Tech beat North Carolina State in the Peach Bowl. I attended the 1981 Peach Bowl where I saw Virginia Tech play the University of Miami; and even before that I saw Virginia Tech become the NIT basketball champion, beating Notre Dame in overtime. Virginia Tech beat Miami in football seven out of the past eleven years; they have been in the top 10 four times during the past ten years; they won three Big East titles and are the current ACC champions in their inaugural year in that conference. More importantly, Virginia Tech's athletes are truly student-athletes in the very best sense of the term. Many of them were enrolled in classes I taught here in the 70's and 80's, and I can attest to their academic ability. Virginia Tech's starting quarterback, Brian Randall, was just awarded an $18,000 academic scholarship. Further, Virginia Tech is one of only five schools in the nation that has been invited to twelve straight bowl games. Women's athletics has an equally stellar history at Tech. Thus, it would appear that the writer of the Times-Picayune article that was posted on this thread knows very little about Virginia Tech's athletics or its academics! It is appropriate to note further that students flock here from all over the nation. Virginia Tech is a magnet for the very best students, irrespective of the university's athletic reputation. For many years it has been among the nation's top universities in terms of extramural grant funding; and it maintains one of the finest corporate research parks anywhere. A little off topic, but I do want to make one more point. For many years Virginia Tech has been a strong AAUP institution. The principles of academic freedom, shared governance, a strong and fair tenure system, and personnel decisions based on merit are all woven into the very fabric of this institution. Again, contrary to the statements in that Times-Picayune article, all of this occurred long before Virginia Tech became a power in athletics. "

Right on. Now, how do I get a job at Va. Tech? Sounds like heaven compared to here.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"Right on. Now, how do I get a job at Va. Tech? Sounds like heaven compared to here."

Sure it is, if you don't mind a turkey for a mascot. I know, I know: Ben Franklin thought turkeys should be the national bird. He called eagles "glorified buzzards."

Seriously, I had the pleasure of visiting a good friend in Blacksburg a few years ago. His father was on the faculty at VT. It really is beautiful country and a mighty fine school that balances athletics and academics.

Athletics should be an adjunct, an auxiliary to academics. It's a question of which is the dog and which is the tail. There is no question but that athletics is often the most public expression of the university. When USM won the NIT back in '87, I heard AKL say that inquiries from prospective students increased by ten fold. That same year, we had an academic program (polymer science) that received national recognition, and it created hardly a blip on the prospect radar.

My other gripe is that I often hear, "You should buy season football tickets to support USM." I never hear, "You should buy season symphony tickets to support the university," or "You should join the ILR to support Southern Miss." Why is athletics always the socially acceptable way to support a school?

Date: Jan 5, 2005

CD, Invictus and Angeline:

You are all right on. I'm from that area of country and have worked with students and faculty at numerous colleges in Virginia: William and Mary, VCU, Old Dominion., University of Richmond, Virginia Tech, University of Virginia -- the list could go on. My experience with the Virginia university system has been far more positive than negative. Tech really is a strong academic university with an excellent sense of balance of disciplines. They have an excellent theatre department -- C.D. did you know Don Drapeau?

Anyway -- nothing is perfect and all schools have their problems. But the students and faculty I've workd with from these schools have represented their schools and their state well, and I always look forward to the opportunity to work with folks from this area.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

In response to the poster of 'anti-athletics, etc., etc..., blah, blah' - the 'effect' he/she mentions is a documented occurrence called the 'Flutie Effect' - named, of course, for Doug Flutie -- Boston College quarterback Flutie threw a last-minute 48-yard touchdown pass in the waning moments of a game with Miami for a huge win. After the ensuing and frenzied media coverage, Boston College saw a marked increase in applications, out-of-state applications, graduate applications (??) as well as higher incoming freshman SATs, etc.

Now, that being said, I have always suspected that college football was secretly a fiscal drain, with university admin perfroming various forms of budgetary obfuscation, misdirection and outright lies to support programs that ultimately lost money - (see the article) - interesting point - USM is mentioned by name in the article....

Title: Football Is a Sucker's Game.
URL:
http://www.und.edu/org/iac/Documents/Football%20Is%20a%20Sucker's%20Game.htm

Authors: Sokolove, Michael
Source: New York Times Magazine; 12/22/2002, Vol. 152 Issue 52340, p36, 10p
Document Type: Article
Subject Terms: COLLEGE sports
FOOTBALL

Abstract: Looks at college football programs as bowl season arrives, and the importance placed on the football teams by college and athletic officials who manage the programs. Discussion of the University of South Florida; Scholarships given to football players; How money is raised to support football programs; View of college football as a commercial enterprise; How smaller schools will play a game at the stadium of a bigger school in an effort to raise more money.
ISSN: 0028-7822

Last Note - I don't really think college football, or college sports are to blame per se. In fact, it's much more of a sad commetnary on the social culture / structure of the United States when students and parents choose an academic institution based on the perceived ability of a given university's sports teams.

Date: Jan 5, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stephen judd
"C.D. did you know Don Drapeau?"

Stephen, Indeed I do. I knew him when I was on the faculty here some years ago, and I now see him occasionally at the University Club.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: C.D. Noblin
"Stephen, Indeed I do. I knew him when I was on the faculty here some years ago, and I now see him occasionally at the University Club. "

I see him at our Southeastern Theatre Conference. When I was at SUNY New Paltz he was the leader of our National Association of Schools of Theatre accreditation team. We liked him so much we hired him to come in and run a departmental retreat for us --

Say hello when you see him -- I'm sure it will be a suprise for him.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Stephen Judd
" I see him at our Southeastern Theatre Conference. When I was at SUNY New Paltz he was the leader of our National Association of Schools of Theatre accreditation team. We liked him so much we hired him to come in and run a departmental retreat for us -- Say hello when you see him -- I'm sure it will be a suprise for him. "

Stephen, I will probably see him tomorrow evening. He has been a major player for many years in the development of VT's theatre program. The premier role of theatre, art, and music dates as far back as 1967 when former president Marshall Hahn (a physicist) mandated that art, music and theatre be emphasized in order to create a truly comprehensive university. The current president (Charles Steger) has also declared, when he was inaugurated in 2000, that the absence of major arts facilities is a detriment to an institution's status as a major university. You may be interested in this excerpt from last Winter's (2003) issue of the Virginia Tech Magazine depicting the important role of theatre, arts, and music at a school like this which is generally recognized as being strong in the sciences and in engineering:

"Today, plans for improving visual and performing arts facilities are moving forward. On Nov. 5, Virginia voters approved a $900-million bond referendum to support capital projects at all colleges and universities in the commonwealth, including $6.5 million earmarked for the renovation of Henderson Hall, where the SOTA will be housed. A Fine Arts Center, which is now included in the university's six-year plan, is currently proposed for inclusion in the university's upcoming capital campaign. The Fine Arts Center will be built along the north side of Alumni Mall in the vicinity of Schultz Hall and will consist of two components: a $40-million, 1,300-seat, multi-purpose performance hall and an $8-million art gallery. At present, the estimated time frame is for construction for the performance hall to be bid out in April 2004, with completion scheduled for April 2006."

I will tell Don Drapeau of our rather unusual online meeting. I am sure he will be surprised as well as delighted!