Exchange with USM Student - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 4, 2005

Exchange with USM Student

Date: Jan 4, 2005

What a great and civil reply!

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Hello,

I am a current student at USM who signed on for a scholarship prior to the breaking of the professor debacle, the fourth tier status, and the accreditation probation. I believe that I have received an excellent education from many excellent professors in my first semester here, but am worried that a degree from this institution will mean practically nothing, even if accreditation is not lost. This poses a great problem for me, as I hope (was hoping) to go to a prestigious graduate school to reach my goal of becoming a college professor. I have enjoyed going to school here, but should I seriously consider transferring to another school, one that has not been so tarnished?

Thank you,

concerned current USM student

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Concerned Student,

You should speak privately about this with a few faculty members that you respect. You should also speak with professors at your undergraduate school.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: concerned current USM student
"Hello,
This poses a great problem for me, as I hope (was hoping) to go to a prestigious graduate school to reach my goal of becoming a college professor. I have enjoyed going to school here, but should I seriously consider transferring to another school, one that has not been so tarnished?
Thank you,
concerned current USM student"

It depends too on your field. If you're in Marine Science, polymers, etc. stay put. If you're in education, run like hell. There may be enough lingering prestige to stay in English if you're at least a junior. Beyond that, I cannot say.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Thank you all for your replies. I am in English, and plan to speak privately with some of my professors as soon as I get a chance.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: concerned current USM student
"Thank you all for your replies. I am in English, and plan to speak privately with some of my professors as soon as I get a chance."

Take the chance early. Don't delay the discussion. At the worst, you could finish out the year. We'll still be accredited in May barring any major catastrophic events. Your credits can then be transferred, though I don't know if you'll still be attending a wurl class institution. Best of luck.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Thank you. I really hate to transfer because I like USM and have made so many great friends, but I feel that I may have no other choice if I hope to go to a prestigious grad school.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

concerned student--your letters of recommendation will be important. the faculty in english are respected, and they will help you get into a good graduate program. as i've said on other threads, i believe we'll get through this accreditation issue. for graduate students, recommendations are always going to be important.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: concerned current USM student
"Thank you. I really hate to transfer because I like USM and have made so many great friends, but I feel that I may have no other choice if I hope to go to a prestigious grad school. "

Speaking now as a grad student at USM about to finish his Masters in May, I know your concern, too. I'm applying to several Ph.D. programs, three of them in the top 10 schools in my field nationally. My credentials are very, very good. But, my Masters degree will be from a school currently on academic probation from SACS. Am I worried silly about it? No. But, if I only 12 out of 138 were accepted last year and I am on the cusp, it could hurt my chances for admission.

Here's the thing about it for me, though. My experiences in Hattiesburg, both on and off campus, have been extraordinary. I have made many collegial relationships with some great faculty and have had some wonderful opportunities to fill leadership roles in the community. I wouldn't take anything for these two years.

Having said that, were I considering programs now instead of two years ago, would I think hard about coming to USM? Yes. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a fool or a liar. The quality of education here is very good, and in many cases extraordinary, thanks to our faculty. But, accreditation loss is a serious risk for a person to consider. I'm old. It sounds like you may be a good deal younger than I. I don't think that matters much. Do what your obvious good sense tells you to do after you consult with your trusted faculty members. And, whatever you decide, remember that nothing is unchangeable. No matter how swiftly you think you are advancing on your targets (goals), you'll find occasion to step backwards once or twice in your path. Sometimes those steps backward have saved me from getting crushed by the avalanche.

All the best as you consider your options!
DJ

Date: Jan 6, 2005

My own hope would be that faculty on graduate admissions committees at other schools would not hold USM's current plight against students at USM, and they might actually be sympathetic to applications from USM. Almost everyone who knows about the mess at USM knows that it is caused by Shelby Thames, and there is enormous sympathy for the faculty, staff, and students at the university. The faculty and staff who made USM respected are still there (to a great degree, and with some notable exceptions), although the damage done by Shelby Thames to the school's reputation as an institution has obviously begun to be felt. What puzzles me about the situation at USM is why students haven't taken a more active role in protesting Thames's destruction of the school's reputation. The Student Printz last year, for instance, seemed more active, as did students in general. Perhaps the accreditation fiasco came too late in the fall term for students to make their feelings known; perhaps more will be heard from them once the new term starts. It is very strange, however, that there have not been more letters to the editor from students and their parents. These folks have much to lose (especially their financial investments) if SFT continues to run USM into the ground. I hope students and parents and alumni will become more active in defending USM and in calling for SFT's removal (I say "removal" since I know he will never resign).

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: concerned current USM student
"Thank you. I really hate to transfer because I like USM and have made so many great friends, but I feel that I may have no other choice if I hope to go to a prestigious grad school. "

It's not easy to leave a place you like and great friends you've made, but let me assure you that there are plenty of places you could like even more than USM--and you'll make great friends wherever you go.

After five years teaching at USM, I gave up a tenured position there and left many dear colleagues and wonderful students. Some people might think I was crazy to give up what I had at USM, but I think I would have been crazy to stay there. Although no longer employed full-time in my field, I have quickly made great new friends and hooked up with terrific colleagues in my new location, and I am finding a wider range of professional opportunities than I ever found while at USM. Within months of leaving USM, the quality of my life has improved dramatically.

After the loss of Professors Stringer, Polk, Harvey, Malone, Robison, Herzinger(?), and Berry (did I miss any?), USM's English department is, in the words of "Shadow," a shadow of its former self--even though some fine English faculty remain (but who knows for how long?). This, combined with probation and the likely loss of accreditation (can you really imagine Shelby Thames getting USM out of the horrendous mess he's made??), and the fact that Thames obviously has very low regard for the English department and no more of a clue about the arts and humanities than he has about administration, ought to make it pretty clear to any serious English major that staying at USM is a bad bet.

My frank advice, which I realize is contrary to what others are saying:
Life is too short. Get on with it. Transfer before the value of your USM credits plummets to zero!

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Robert,

I hope you are right as to how the crisis is viewed outside Hattiesburg. My gut tells me that you are right, for the most part. Those faculty and administrators at other schools who are aware of the plight here seem to be sympathetic to students and faculty so far as I can tell.

It's important to realize that the announcement of the SACS probation came either right before or during finals week and there may have been one issue of the Printz to run after the announcement. The peak of student unrest seemed to occur in the days immediately following the lockout of Glamser and Stringer. What has disappointed me is the position taken by the SGA leadership under Walt Cain. I will be most anxious to hear what he has to say about this next week when the term begins.

My guess is that more people will vote with their feet than with the pen.

How bad must it get?
DJ

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Thank you all for your replies. I feel much better now. I do feel that the accreditation news broke too late in the semester for it to cause much outcry from students. We had exams coming up the next week. I, having just recovered from the shame of dropping down to fourth-tier, almost had a complete meltdown. I do hate what is being done to my university, and I think we just need to clean house. (And by house, I mean Dome.)

Date: Jan 7, 2005

Should a USM computer science student stay put or go elsewhere?

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: concerned current USM student
"Thank you all for your replies. I feel much better now. I do feel that the accreditation news broke too late in the semester for it to cause much outcry from students. We had exams coming up the next week. I, having just recovered from the shame of dropping down to fourth-tier, almost had a complete meltdown. I do hate what is being done to my university, and I think we just need to clean house. (And by house, I mean Dome.)"

Thank you for clarifying the use of the "clean house" term in context. Many of us jumped on that theme when FireShelby proposed the upside down brooms as a symbol of the need to sweep out the current administration. When Roy Klumb used the term on the Dave Elliot show, indicating that Shelby Thames was in office to "clean house" it took on a new more sinister meaning.

Good luck to you in whatever choice you make.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

As a general principle, the value of anyone's degree is largely a matter of how good the university is perceived to be when the question is being asked, not when you went there. Thus, someone who graduated from Ole Miss forty years ago when the school was enmeshed in the integration violence and bad national publicity is judged by the current reputation of the school. That is why alumni have a strong interest in the quality of their alma mater well after they leave. It is also why I have been surprised at how little USM alumni have been involved in the current controversy.

Another principle is that over time the quality of the institution becomes more important than the quality of the program. On your resume it looks better to have gone through a weak program at the University of Texas twenty years ago than a strong program at East Texas State. Very few people will know how good a program was twenty years ago.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

Many of the alumni no longer worry about the value of their degrees. The degree, grade point average, ranking in class, etc., can be very important in the first employment search; but after that, those particulars can get lost.

I've heard it said that what you do in college may get you the first job, but it is what you do there that will get you the next job.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: ram
"I've heard it said that what you do in college may get you the first job, but it is what you do there that will get you the next job. "

This is true. I hire people for a living and a degree basically helps you get the job but the rest is up to you. Economist Robert Samuel stated it best:

"A shiny credential may impress. But after that, what people can or can't do counts for more. Skills grow. Reputations emerge. Companies prefer the competent from Podunk to the incompetent from Princeton."

Do you think the managers making over $100,000/yr. at Wal-Mart have a degree? Besides, not too many people have a job that matches his or degree.

Unless if you are going into a field such as lecturing at a university or college or even a medical career (doctor,surgeon), a degree by any other name is still a degree. Unless it's from Sally Struthers.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:

Economist Robert Samuel stated it best:
"A shiny credential may impress. But after that, what people can or can't do counts for more. Skills grow. Reputations emerge. Companies prefer the competent from Podunk to the incompetent from Princeton."

Where you got your degree might not matter in the business world, but if you're planning a career in academia, where you got your degrees (your "pedigree") can make a huge difference to many on academic search committees, for the rest of your academic career.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Left (formerly Leaving Soon)
" Where you got your degree might not matter in the business world, but if you're planning a career in academia, where you got your degrees (your "pedigree") can make a huge difference to many on academic search committees, for the rest of your academic career."

And notice the way that Degree at Work referred to a career in academia "Unless you are going into a field such as lecturing at a university or college"; this is not someone who understands an academic career.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Class SACS
" And notice the way that Degree at Work referred to a career in academia "Unless you are going into a field such as lecturing at a university or college"; this is not someone who understands an academic career."

From my perspective, what Degree at Work said makes a great deal of sense. The truth of the matter is that it is we academicians who probably don't understand the non- academic job market very well.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Class SACS
" And notice the way that Degree at Work referred to a career in academia "Unless you are going into a field such as lecturing at a university or college"; this is not someone who understands an academic career."

Allow me to pull out the fire hose...

Actually I do understand an academic career since I considered it. I would like to start my graduate degree but from what I've been reading the history department isn't what it used to be.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

The difference between a faculty member and a lecturer is HUGE.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Degree at Work
" . . . a degree basically helps you get the job but the rest is up to you. Economist Robert Samuel stated it best: "A shiny credential may impress. But after that, what people can or can't do counts for more."

Degree at Work, what you say here is true in academics also. An undergraduate degree only helps provide an opportunity. After that . . . you're on your own. It is the terminal degree that defines an academician - not the undergraduate degree. Many top faculty members at major universities took their baccalaureate at what some would call "dippy" schools; while many of the worst faculty members took their doctorate at Ivy Leage schools. I see no difference between the performance of graduate students who come from the lesser known undergradute schools and the performance of graduate students who come from the top schools. I went to a small relatively unknown undergraduate institution, and I would do so again. Perhaps that made it more difficult for me to get into a top graduate program, but when I finally did gain admittance the playing field was level. It was what I did from that point on that counted. After I received my doctorate, nobody ever asked where I went as an undergraduate. For many years I have expressed to many of my undergraduates the very sentiments of your posting.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Class SACS
"The difference between a faculty member and a lecturer is HUGE."

Class SACS - as you say, there is a HUGE difference between a faculty member and a lecturer. Some undergraduates who aspire to an academic career know that, but I dare say most don't have the foggiest idea about that. It is during that first year in graduate school that they become "socialized" to the discipline and to academics in general. Those whose "socialization" does not "take," drop out or plod along unsuccessfully. My experience is that most of them catch on quick - like a fish takes to water. Occasionally, if lucky, we get a knowledgable undergraduate whose socialization to academics begins at the undergraduate level. From my experience, however, such a critter is rare.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

been there,done that, what you wrote is true. I had a professor who has a B.A. and M.A from USM and a Ph.D. from MSU ("State"), but I never felt cheated in any of his classes because he didn't have a degree from a prestigious university as the professor next door. According to last year's list, he moved on as well.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

The reason that the distinction is relevant is because of the student's own words in his or her orginal post.

"This poses a great problem for me, as I hope (was hoping) to go to a prestigious graduate school to reach my goal of becoming a college professor."

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Class SACS
"The reason that the distinction is relevant is because of the student's own words in his or her orginal post. "This poses a great problem for me, as I hope (was hoping) to go to a prestigious graduate school to reach my goal of becoming a college professor.""

Class SACS - I suppose that, all other things equal, a graduate admissions committee would tend to look twice at a undergraduate from Duke than an undergraduate from Podunk State. If that is what you are saying, I totally agree. What I was suggesting is that once the Duke student and the Podunk State student gain admission to graduate school, the playing field is level. Insofar as reaching the goal of becoming a college professor at a good research university in my discipline, the most certain route of achieving that goal begins with selecting a nationally visible major professor, spending your days, nights, and weekends in that person's laboratory, and publishing your a** off in refereed journals while still in graduate school.

Date: Jan 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: Degree at Work

I had a professor who has . . . a Ph.D. from MSU ("State"), but I never felt cheated in any of his classes because he didn't have a degree from a prestigious university."

Mississippi State University has a better reputation outside of Mississippi than it does within Mississippi. (Perhaps one is not a prophet in their own country!). You might be surprised at how many MSU doctoral graduates hold responsible academic positions at major land grant universities throughout the nation.