This is CRAZY! - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 4, 2004

This is CRAZY!

Date: Dec 4, 2004

I agree it appears that the SFT administration is tearing down USM. Robert Campbell and others think it may even be the intension of the IHL Board to do so. However, I must inform you and the participants of this board that this is NOT the case for all areas of the university. The College of Arts and Letters is taking the brunt of the hit, as is almost all departments that can’t bring in money. However, during all of this mess, Science and Technology has been, and still is, quietly expanding and hiring. Except for Math (which doesn’t bring in $$$) approvals to interview and hire in CoST has been moving along nicely.

I also consider this a destruction of the “traditional university”, but others (outside the university and those inside with power) have the opinion it is becoming stronger. This causes much difficulty when these two cultures try to communicate. To see this, just read the minutes of the PUC.

I tried to point some of this out long ago on the old FireShelby board. We had some very interesting discussions. If SFT had used “shared governance”, I believe the same destruction would have occurred, but we would not have the “high moral ground” we presently have thanks to Glamser and Stringer.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Otherside

" . . . others (outside the university and those inside with power) have the opinion it is becoming stronger."

If such "others" do exist - inside or outside of USM - they must be those who don't have the foggiest idea of what a university is all about. The litmus test rests with our peers nationally - not with naive "insiders with power" or uninformed outsiders.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Academic Mypoia
"If such "others" do exist - inside or outside of USM - they must be those who don't have the foggiest idea of what a university is all about. The litmus test rests with our peers nationally - not with naive "insiders with power" or uninformed outsiders. "

Of course, A.M. I agree. But do the IHL Board members realize this? Well maybe one does, but not the likes of Klumb and gang. That is what's CRAZY!!

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
"Of course, A.M. I agree. But do the IHL Board members realize this? Well maybe one does, but not the likes of Klumb and gang. That is what's CRAZY!!"

These 12-year IHL appointments, with no identifiable way to get rid of members who might not know or do their job, is a blight on higher education in Mississippi. They seem to have more security in their roles than even the members United States Supreme Court.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

perhaps the class action suit should be against the IHL.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippian in college elsewhere
"I'm originally from Jackson but am currently an undergraduate at an university far, far, from the reaches of my kudzu-covered home.."

Please don't tell your friends about us.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippian in college elsewhere
"Have you folks considered writing a book? You know, an expose of sorts? It seems some of the topics on this board would make excellent fodder"

We hear that a book may be in the works. Some of us, however, believe that the National Enquirer might be a more suitable outlet.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

Unapologetic Shelby's Mission

Date: Dec 4, 2004

Unsavory Sophomoric Minions

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippian in college elsewhere
"

Oh, and do your students know about what's going on with the USM administration? I would hope they would be as up-in-arms about the situation. Don't they realize that ultimately the strength and viability of their school's academic climate and the happiness of the faculty reinforce the value of their USM degree? Jeesh! "

Yes. The students were very active in protests last year. I believe somewhere in these pages there is a link to some photos of the demonstrations last year -- or perhaps someone can provide it again for newcomers. But I think the students do not have the frame of reference that the
faculty do, and ultimately, many do not realize that all the upheavals mean a poorer education for them (unless of course, they're in polymer science).

As for the comments about CoAL and the sciences. It was very interesting during the worst of the Glamser-Stringer mess last year, to walk around the campus. Liberal Arts was full of protest signs, there were some in the Fine Arts Buildling, but if you went over to the Chemistry dept., the signs were few and far between--not to specifically knock chemists, as some were very active protesters--but the protests were not so obvious in the buildings that hold scientists.

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: foot soldier "It was very interesting during the worst of the Glamser-Stringer mess last year, to walk around the campus. Liberal Arts was full of protest signs, there were some in the Fine Arts Buildling, but if you went over to the Chemistry dept., the signs were few and far between--not to specifically knock chemists, as some were very active protesters--but the protests were not soobvious in the buildings that hold scientists."

I believe that this has been said previously on this message board but in view of foot soldier's observations it is worth repeating here:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Date: Dec 4, 2004

Talked to someone suing USM and was reminded that the IHL is named right along with the principals of the suit (and USM) since the IHL refused to listen to the appeal. I've been told that the IHL is named in a number of these suits. A good thing to know.

Grits vs. Granola (said on ESPN tonight referring to Cal playing USM).

Date: Dec 4, 2004

Do you think if the taxpayers of Miss. (i.e. myself, still an official resident) raised such a stink that the IHL/other politicos would listen? To think that my taxes are going towards paying for this USM mess is rather disheartening. Actually, I've been growing angrier by the minute since I stumbled onto this site. As people deeply embroiled in this, what do you think would be effective, in general, as a response from those not involved? Isn't USM risking losing its accreditation at some point? But then again, Miss. does harbor the dozen plus "diploma mill scams" that states like Oregon and Iowa sent packing...so what do I know....perhaps USM will join their ranks with all of this online degree talk. (If you want to read more on that, read the Chronicle's interview with Maxine Ascher back in June I guess it was....fascinating stuff).

Unfortunately I have nothing to compare this all to at my school--all of my professors seem genuinely happy here. But then again they generally treat faculty rather well--ever since 1901 at least (John Spencer Bassett and his South Atlantic Quarterly set the precedent for giving faculty a wide berth).

Okay, I'm procrasinating enough.

[none of you happen to specialize in the history of 1960's rural Eastern Kentucky/Appalachia do you? I have 34 pages to go on this paper.... ;)]

Date: Dec 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippian attending college elsewhere
" Do you think if the taxpayers of Miss. (i.e. myself, still an official resident) raised such a stink that the IHL/other politicos would listen? To think that my taxes are going towards paying for this USM mess is rather disheartening. Actually, I've been growing angrier by the minute since I stumbled onto this site. As people deeply embroiled in this, what do you think would be effective, in general, as a response from those not involved? Isn't USM risking losing its accreditation at some point? But then again, Miss. does harbor the dozen plus "diploma mill scams" that states like Oregon and Iowa sent packing...so what do I know....perhaps USM will join their ranks with all of this online degree talk. (If you want to read more on that, read the Chronicle's interview with Maxine Ascher back in June I guess it was....fascinating stuff). Unfortunately I have nothing to compare this all to at my school--all of my professors seem genuinely happy here. But then again they generally treat faculty rather well--ever since 1901 at least (John Spencer Bassett and his South Atlantic Quarterly set the precedent for giving faculty a wide berth). Okay, I'm procrasinating enough. [none of you happen to specialize in the history of 1960's rural Eastern Kentucky/Appalachia do you? I have 34 pages to go on this paper.... ;)] "

You appear to be rather well versed in some matters not normally in the vocabulary of the typical undergraduate (e.g., diploma scam mills, The Chronicle of Higher Education, Maxine Ascher, John Spencer Bassett and his South Atlantic Quarterly). Most undergraduates don't even seem to know about the letters IHL mean. Most of them don't even seem to give a second thought to the implications of accreditation. Even the history of 1960's rural Eastern Kentucky/Appalachia seems exotic to me.

Date: Dec 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: -???-
"You appear to be rather well versed in some matters not normally in the vocabulary of the typical undergraduate (e.g., diploma scam mills, The Chronicle of Higher Education, Maxine Ascher, John Spencer Bassett and his South Atlantic Quarterly). Most undergraduates don't even seem to know about the letters IHL mean. Most of them don't even seem to give a second thought to the implications of accreditation. Even the history of 1960's rural Eastern Kentucky/Appalachia seems exotic to me. "

I don't know if I should feel flattered or threatened ;).

Yes, perhaps I have a more vested interest in academia than the undergraduates you're familiar with because I am currently perusing graduate programs.

I will say that most of what I know about Ms. Ascher and diploma mills is courtesy of the Chronicle, which I read regularly (I am also involved in college journalism as a sidenote, so maybe that explains it?). In addition, it is nearly impossible to attend my institution without being familiar with Bassett and his journal (we recently celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Bassett Affair last year).

(Oh, and about the paper, how's forcible humanitarian intervention and United Nations doctrine in Somalia from 1992-1995 for an exotic topic? Somehow I managed to church out 25 pages on that by Friday...isn't academia all about such randomness? Coal mining in Kentucky, Jewish death rituals, international refugees, the oral histories of lesbian mothers...maybe I'm just taking the wrong classes ;) I assure you I'm your fairly typical 20-year-old college student...maybe, dear poster, you give me too much credit.)

Date: Dec 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippian attending college elsewhere
" I don't know if I should feel flattered or threatened ;). Yes, perhaps I have a more vested interest in academia than the undergraduates you're familiar with because I am currently perusing graduate programs. I will say that most of what I know about Ms. Ascher and diploma mills is courtesy of the Chronicle, which I read regularly (I am also involved in college journalism as a sidenote, so maybe that explains it?). In addition, it is nearly impossible to attend my institution without being familiar with Bassett and his journal (we recently celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Bassett Affair last year). (Oh, and about the paper, how's forcible humanitarian intervention and United Nations doctrine in Somalia from 1992-1995 for an exotic topic? Somehow I managed to church out 25 pages on that by Friday...isn't academia all about such randomness? Coal mining in Kentucky, Jewish death rituals, international refugees, the oral histories of lesbian mothers...maybe I'm just taking the wrong classes ;) I assure you I'm your fairly typical 20-year-old college student...maybe, dear poster, you give me too much credit.)"

You sound like a college undergraduate from the 1960s, or a Honors College student at USM. At USM, with our virtual open admissions policy, most students run from newsprint (unless it is the Printz, which requires but a short attention span to navigate), and would struggle to write a 10 page paper on any topic that requires some thinking time. Many simply cut and paste from websites ("I didn't know Doc, that's what you mean by plagarism? Geez, no one told me...") We do have some outstanding students here who might write the type of post you wrote, but, unfortunately, the majority are not concerned much with world events (unless it is to adhere to mommy and daddy's party line), and any history before Y2K is lost on them. The state dept of ed is looking to beef up the HS curriculum, which is a good thing, but it will take years to repair the damage of low expectations in education that has hurt this state. So, don't be surprised that a previous poster (probably a faculty member also) was impressed by the thought and elegance of your post. It's just refreshing to see in a college undergraduate for a change.

Date: Dec 5, 2004

Mississippian in college elsewhere, I believe you are at Tier 1. USM is Tier 4.
There is a big difference at schools that can be selective about which students they admit.

For those of you who want to read about Prof. Bassett, try this:

http://www.lib.duke.edu/archives/history/j_s_bassett.html

(Sorry, I have never yet learned how to make a hot link.)

Date: Dec 5, 2004

http://www.lib.duke.edu/archives/history/j_s_bassett.html

Date: Dec 5, 2004

A little off topic here, but I would be interested in learning the undergraduate major of members of the IHL. The highly vocal one majored in horticulture, I think. At least one accounting graduate has served there in the past. Do any humanities, arts, or social science graduates hold membership on the IHL board?

Date: Dec 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Darwinian Selection
"The highly vocal one majored in horticulture, I think. "

"Ahem. That's _ornamental_ horticulture to you," says Roy Klumb.

Date: Dec 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
""Ahem. That's _ornamental_ horticulture to you," says Roy Klumb."

IIRC, the esteeemed Mr. Klumb has a vocational certificate in ornamental horticulture. He then transferred to MSU where he majored in political science. Based on his work with the college board, I can only assume that he slept through the classes.

The only sign that we have that he understands the political process is that he made big enough contributions to Governor Fordice's campaign to get an appointment. Unfortunately, he didn't make contribute enough to get the appointment he wanted (Game & Fish) & had to take the IHL appointment instead.

Date: Dec 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"Klumb .... the appointment he wanted (Game & Fish) & had to take the IHL appointment instead."

It does appear that membership on the IHL is rapidly becoming the booby prize!

Date: Dec 5, 2004

Having just eaten & being undesirous of acid reflux, I'm not looking at the IHL website at the moment, but I seem to recall that two members of the board are opthalmologists. This suggests that they were science majors in college before going to med school, although there are a few liberal arts types who get admitted to med school.

One would think that with TWO opthalmologists on board, IHL would have better vision...

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
" However, during all of this mess, Science and Technology has been, and still is, quietly expanding and hiring. "

How well will Provost Gandy be able to represent all the academic units on campus?

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
"
I agree it appears that the SFT administration is tearing down USM. Robert Campbell and others think it may even be the intension of the IHL Board to do so. However, I must inform you and the participants of this board that this is NOT the case for all areas of the university. The College of Arts and Letters is taking the brunt of the hit, as is almost all departments that can’t bring in money. However, during all of this mess, Science and Technology has been, and still is, quietly expanding and hiring. Except for Math (which doesn’t bring in $$$) approvals to interview and hire in CoST has been moving along nicely.

I also consider this a destruction of the “traditional university”, but others (outside the university and those inside with power) have the opinion it is becoming stronger. This causes much difficulty when these two cultures try to communicate. To see this, just read the minutes of the PUC.

I tried to point some of this out long ago on the old FireShelby board. We had some very interesting discussions. If SFT had used “shared governance”, I believe the same destruction would have occurred, but we would not have the “high moral ground” we presently have thanks to Glamser and Stringer. "

Otherside,

Do you happen to know how much of the hiring in the College of Science and Technology is to soft-money positions (positions paid for entirely out of grant funds)?

Any hiring to regular faculty positions over there commits USM to paying the professors' salaries and benefits out of state appropriations, tuition income, or private donations/endowment funds.

The reason I'm asking is that unless all of the new faculty hiring in CoST is to soft-money positions, revenue is being diverted from other parts of USM to pay for those faculty.

Since Thames values only grant-funded research, of course he is going to give CoST privileged treatment. But how much good will that be to CoST when Thames' policies have made the library useless, or scared off most potential donors, or so compromised USM's ability to educate undergraduates that enrollment begins to tumble, and there is no longer so much tuition revenue to divert? What is going to happen when the rest of the university gets so dilapidated that it can no longer generate sufficient income to support the central administration and the science departments? You can't run competitive graduate programs in science and engineering in the midst of a community college.

Some faculty members in CoST may not care too much what happens to the rest of USM, so long as when Polymer Science gets crated up and shipped to Starkville, their programs are eligible for the same kind of salvage. But they shouldn't kid themselves about Thames' policies being sustainable over the next few years.

Robert Campbell

Date: Dec 6, 2004

With the economic development cash cow moo(v)ing in COST, there should be lots of new funding opportunities. Can anyone confirm the identity of the anonymous Trent Lott Center $2 million donor?

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
" Otherside, Do you happen to know how much of the hiring in the College of Science and Technology is to soft-money positions (positions paid for entirely out of grant funds)? Any hiring to regular faculty positions over there commits USM to paying the professors' salaries and benefits out of state appropriations, tuition income, or private donations/endowment funds. The reason I'm asking is that unless all of the new faculty hiring in CoST is to soft-money positions, revenue is being diverted from other parts of USM to pay for those faculty. Since Thames values only grant-funded research, of course he is going to give CoST privileged treatment. But how much good will that be to CoST when Thames' policies have made the library useless, or scared off most potential donors, or so compromised USM's ability to educate undergraduates that enrollment begins to tumble, and there is no longer so much tuition revenue to divert? What is going to happen when the rest of the university gets so dilapidated that it can no longer generate sufficient income to support the central administration and the science departments? You can't run competitive graduate programs in science and engineering in the midst of a community college. Some faculty members in CoST may not care too much what happens to the rest of USM, so long as when Polymer Science gets crated up and shipped to Starkville, their programs are eligible for the same kind of salvage. But they shouldn't kid themselves about Thames' policies being sustainable over the next few years. Robert Campbell "

Robert, I believe these are tenure track positions and NOT “soft money” positions. I believe they are moving positions to departments where they expect a “return” on their investment. I ask my colleagues in Arts and Letters to please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe English, History and other departments took hits. In CoST, I know that Math lost six (6) full professors over the pass 4 years due to retirements and resignations. They have not yet been replaced. However, Math is trying to hire two (2) assistant profs. and a replacement for the chairman, but they haven’t interviewed yet. Six full professors sure frees up a lot of $$$.

Did you see the thread about “No New Teachers II” ? It pointed to the H.A. article below:

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041203/NEWS01/412030301/1002

“USM may not fill positions
Thames hesitant to hire with threat of budget cuts”

Well, CoST departments have hired or are interviewing while other departments are trying to get permission to advertise. The above article quotes some PUC members after the meeting:

“President's Council member and graduate student David Johnson said the earlier a position can be advertised, the better.

"If you don't advertise early, you don't get top candidates, the first choice candidates," Johnson said. "If we get approved in April for a fall position, we're going to get the folks who are left - the after-hours sidewalk sale."

Immunology professor Bobby Middlebrooks said he doesn't think that will necessarily be the case.

"People might be willing to come any time," he said.”

Do you now see the picture (I believe, but have no hard evidence) developing? I hope CoAL can supply us with more information about their faculty positions and what is being done.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Cattle are Lowing
"Can anyone confirm the identity of the anonymous Trent Lott Center $2 million donor?"

Starts with "K" and rhymes with dumb.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Cattle are Lowing
" Can anyone confirm the identity of the anonymous Trent Lott Center $2 million donor?"

A kickback from Aramark?