PC & Economic Development - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Sep 4, 2004

PC & Economic Development

Date: Sep 4, 2004

One might ask Ken Malone about his qualifications to chair the department or even teach a course. I have looked at his online vita, and it appears that he is not qualified to teach anything in the CBED. He does not meet SACS standards, and he is not even close to meeting AACSB standards. Frankly, I doubt that he is qualified for gradaute faculty status in the area. I have heard he does not really have faculty status - is he tenure track? He doesn't appear to know anything about economic development.

A related question involves the qualifications of students being admitted to the ED graduate programs. I have heard that some of their test scores are very low, and in some cases the students don't meet the gradaute school GPA requirments yet they are still admitted. Is this how to build a quality program?

I have heard also that they use secretaries and students in the program as instructors of record. Is this really true? If so, how can ED ever hope to be a quality program (or meet SACS standards). Further, given the small size of the department (two doctorally qualified faculty) how can they possibly manage such a large PhD program. Makes you wonder about the quality of the PhD's they are selling.

Finally, one might ask if the faculty slated to teach in the unapproved "executive" masters in economic development that has been advertised are qualified and admitted to the graduate faculty. A real disaster in the making!

Date: Sep 4, 2004

How very nice that virtually everything USM says and does is now being subjected to microscopic examination. Too bad such a careful microscopic inspection did not begin years ago.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Leeuwenhoek
"How very nice that virtually everything USM says and does is now being subjected to microscopic examination. Too bad such a careful microscopic inspection did not begin years ago. "

Many of the anomalies can be seen with the naked eye. No microscope is necessary. It appears the IHL doesn't know how to use a microscope and has lost its eyeglasses.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

All of this chitchat is nice, but I'm serious about the need for hard data on this issue.
What universities have ED programs better that USM's?

To answer Leeuwenhoek, USM always had the microscope out when making decisions. It is called "shared governance", "search committees" and "approval of graduate faculty". You are noticing it now only because SFT has not followed these procedures and it is being done in public.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

i can't address the issue of graduate faculty status, but Fleming started up some doctoral programs without a lot of input. all he managed to do was spread resources for doctoral programs a mile wide and an inch deep. the economic development graduate program was really Hudson's baby. and boy, could i tell you about some of the strings he tried to pull about admissions into that program.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

From my old stompin' ground:

http://planning.memphis.edu/originalREDC.htm

Another "Tier 4" institution with a very developed ED program. Just for fun look at the UG majors of the graduated assistants. Significant number of humanities.

I can't tell what the actual degree is, but at least you can tell what they mean by "economic development."

Date: Sep 4, 2004

Ok, the actual degree is a Masters in Planning, but the program's research arm is called the Regional Economic Development Center.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Investigator
" To answer Leeuwenhoek, USM always had the microscope out when making decisions. It is called "shared governance", "search committees" and "approval of graduate faculty".

Investigator, saying that USM has always had "shared governance", "search committees", and "approval of graduate faculty" is like saying your car has an engine, tires, and hubcaps. There is nothing at all "special" about those things They are a sine qua non for academic institutions. Many years ago even a cursory look revealed very clearly that things were not well at USM. Off-campus authorities and on-campus visitors shared that 20/20 vision. Things have now severly deteriorated, agreed. But had the essential ingredients been firmly in place, as they are at strong institutions, this mess would never have happened. Strange as it may seem, it was only fairly recently that USM even had an AAUP chapter. That alone should have told me something. Are you new to this campus?

Date: Sep 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Leeuwenhoek
"Investigator, saying that USM has always had "shared governance", "search committees", and "approval of graduate faculty" is like saying your car has an engine, tires, and hubcaps. There is nothing at all "special" about those things They are a sine qua non for academic institutions. Many years ago even a cursory look revealed very clearly that things were not well at USM. Off-campus authorities and on-campus visitors shared that 20/20 vision. Things have now severly deteriorated, agreed. But had the essential ingredients been firmly in place, as they are at strong institutions, this mess would never have happened. Strange as it may seem, it was only fairly recently that USM even had an AAUP chapter. That alone should have told me something. Are you new to this campus?"

Leeuwenhoek, I agree with what you say here. I may have misinterpreted you earlier remarks. And no, I 'm not new here.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"From my old stompin' ground:
http://planning.memphis.edu/originalREDC.htm
Another "Tier 4" institution with a very developed ED program. Just for fun look at the UG majors of the graduated assistants. Significant number of humanities.
I can't tell what the actual degree is, but at least you can tell what they mean by "economic development.""

Thanks, LVN. I will check this out. Can you refer me to other programs?

Date: Sep 4, 2004

investigator - look at southern new hampshire university. has a school of community economic development granting 5 graduate degrees including a phd. a cursory google shows e.d. as a part of community development for economically disadvantages areas and also as "subspecies" of various business programs.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

i'm wondering why some are doing investigator's work? i did a google search as well. why can't investigator do one?

Date: Sep 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: r.z.
"investigator - look at southern new hampshire university. has a school of community economic development granting 5 graduate degrees including a phd. a cursory google shows e.d. as a part of community development for economically disadvantages areas and also as "subspecies" of various business programs. "

Thanks, r.z. Keep it coming folks.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

Oh, I just threw mine in because I attended/worked at/taught at Memphis and knew somebody in county planning. Also remembered they had a strong business school. I thought Investigator was looking for personal knowledge, but you're right, he can do a Google search like we can.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i'm wondering why some are doing investigator's work? i did a google search as well. why can't investigator do one? "

stinky cheese man, I tried to find such programs by using search engines also. The problem I found is that it is difficult to know which specific search terms to use. I noted that some schools encompass economic development into other programs (e.g., "community and economic develpment.") Many schools seems to have a "center for economic development" but no actual degree program. Another observation I had is that most of the places I did identify seemed to be more committed toward true economic development (e.g., disadvantaged areas) rather than lacing their faculty member's pockets with gold.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

i know it's tough. but why are people so compliant to investigator's request? investigator says jump--and we say how high and in what direction? i get the impression investigator hasn't tried. got a bunch of "gophers" on the board.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

When one needs to prepare for a presentation, one needs a lot of data...

I tend to agree with Googler and Stinky Cheese Man.

Date: Sep 4, 2004

I may have drawn the wrong conclusion but based what I have heard USM's concept of "economic development" may be more like what some other universities call "entrepreneurship" which as a speciality in schools of business. The US News America's Best Graduate Schools publication lists their top five "entrepreneurship" programs. Some pretty fair schools are listed (e.g., Harvard, MIT, Michigan, UCLA, Texas, etc.)

Date: Sep 4, 2004

Don't forget Ashland Community and Technical College's Center for Community, Workforce and Economic Development.

http://www.geocities.com/cooleyadjunct/ACTCphotos2.html

Date: Sep 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i'm wondering why some are doing investigator's work? i did a google search as well. why can't investigator do one? "

stinky cheese man and others,
I did a Google search and had trouble findings programs described by De Taler, i.e.
"* There are at least a dozen universities around the country that do offer comprehensive economic development programs
* There are scores of universities that offer emphases in economic development
* Many of these universities have economic development centers"

This is not my area and I'm not collecting the information for "my presentation". I'm collecting data for some PUC members to be ready for Ken Malone's visit next meeting.

I have my own "work" to do, so this is extra. From De Taler's statement I thought this was commonly known and would be rather easy to obtain. I was wrong, but I will keep working on it.

I asked board members for help. If you can thanks, if you can't then, I'm sorry to have bothered you. I'm just a "gofer" trying to gather ammunition for PUC based on statements made on this board.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Investigator
" stinky cheese man and others, I did a Google search and had trouble findings programs described by De Taler, i.e. "* There are at least a dozen universities around the country that do offer comprehensive economic development programs * There are scores of universities that offer emphases in economic development * Many of these universities have economic development centers" This is not my area and I'm not collecting the information for "my presentation". I'm collecting data for some PUC members to be ready for Ken Malone's visit next meeting. I have my own "work" to do, so this is extra. From De Taler's statement I thought this was commonly known and would be rather easy to obtain. I was wrong, but I will keep working on it. I asked board members for help. If you can thanks, if you can't then, I'm sorry to have bothered you. I'm just a "gofer" trying to gather ammunition for PUC based on statements made on this board. "

Trust is pretty low these days. Have you checked out Georgia State? Oklahoma State? Penn State? Kansas?

A very perfunctory review triggered by this discussion when it came up on the old website last spring was that ED programs seem to fall into three categories:

ED as an interdisciplinary program, with a strong economics foundation, often housed in Schools of Public Policy, Citizenship, or the like;

ED as a business program, defined by someone above as entrepreneurship, or has been described as USM as starting, growing, and globalizing businesses;

ED as a workforce development, chamber of commerce type program often seen in community colleges.

If you're legit, you will get all the help you need.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Investigator
" I did a Google search and had trouble findings programs described by De Taler, i.e.

"* There are at least a dozen universities around the country that do offer comprehensive economic development programs

* There are scores of universities that offer emphases in economic development

* Many of these universities have economic development centers"

I thought this was commonly known and would be rather easy to obtain. I was wrong If you can thanks, if you can't then, I'm sorry to have bothered you.

Investigator, I agree that it is important that De Taler's assertions be either confirmed or denied. Specific and accurate data are essential. Maybe De Taler will come forth and indicate the source. Maybe somebody in CBED knows. At least LVN tried. Maybe economic development qua econonic development is not really an established academic discipline in which case those data may not available in one location. If there is no national "association" bringing such programs together (if there are such programs), it may not be possible to answer the above questions. In any case, no message board participant should make definitive statements which can not be supported. Good luck in your search. Let's hope that help is on the way.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Cynical 2
""

Thanks Cynical 2. I will check these out.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

De Taler should De liver De data on De programs with De spatch to De Eye or De Man will De Light at Da meeting with Da group.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

Someone's not trying very hard, not really interested or has an ulterior motive. I just pulled up a search on academic programs in economic development and found a summary of 32 schools with ED degrees, concentrations, or major emphases - took less than a minute.

This is a hot button. Economic Development may be the litmus test for the ultimate success or failure of this administration.

The administration has built it's reputation and go-forward plan on Economic Development at USM. This is the one area they will clearly go to the mat on. If the PC (or the Faculty Senate) is going to take this one on, be prepared for all out war.

Sorry Trent, sorry Haley, sorry IHL...we lied. Spin that.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

Thanks Just a surface scratcher. The word that did the trick on my Google search was "academic”. I was searching with all the correct words, except "academic". Duh! ED seems to be a discipline (?) without a home..... or too many homes.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Just a surface scratcher
"....
This is a hot button. Economic Development may be the litmus test for the ultimate success or failure of this administration.
The administration has built it's reputation and go-forward plan on Economic Development at USM. This is the one area they will clearly go to the mat on. If the PC (or the Faculty Senate) is going to take this one on, be prepared for all out war.
Sorry Trent, sorry Haley, sorry IHL...we lied. Spin that."

I agree with you J.A.S.S.. This came up in PUC concerning the question of the "credibility" issue of the PR coming from LM. So no one is "attacking" ED, but rather investigating if USM's program is "unique", "one of a kind", comprehensive" and "world class" as the PR from USM claims.

Some on this board stated that the PR was exaggerated. Some members of PUC are looking into this.

Thanks for your assistance.

Date: Sep 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Investigator
" Thanks Just a surface scratcher. The word that did the trick on my Google search was "academic”. I was searching with all the correct words, except "academic". Duh! ED seems to be a discipline (?) without a home..... or too many homes."

And the key is none of them "unique"!

I just went back and took a closer look at the site that summarized the 32 programs. With the likes of Colorado State, University of Wisconsin, Georgia Institute of Technology, Brown, Yale, Princeton, Berkeley, Iowa State, North Carolina State...I looked for USM and didn't find it. I thought maybe we were looking at too prestigious a peer group but then noticed that the University of Puget Sound and Southern New Hampshire University were listed.

I am actually a supporter of economic development as an academic discipline. I take umbrage to the spin. Sometimes it's ok to say "we'd like to grow in this area - we have a start - we'd like to get better - will you help us?" Why do we have to say "we're the best - we're the only - especially when it is obvious to anyone who does more than scratch the surface that we are clearly not?"

Date: Sep 5, 2004

It's good that some early headway is being made on getting the ED data assembled. Something occurred to me as I read the postings on this thread: What if it did turn out that USM is, as once alleged, the only school with such a program? Wouldn't that be somewhat suspect? If a program were so unattractive that nobody else wanted to establish one why would USM want to do so? Is it because we have more resources and more qualified personnel than any other university? Why not a Ph.D. degree in basketweaving? Or bailsbondmanship. Or phlogistic analysis. We could then say that we have the only one in the nation. We could put so many spins on those programs that we would have to hire a full-time spin artist.